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HONOLULU STAR-BULLETIN, THURSDAY. OCT. 3. 1012.
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TIIKSK AKHIYKI) YKSTKIIDAY AND AUK I'ARTK'I.'LAR-
LY GOOF) FISH.
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' Fisher: And when you came into of
i f:ce. I believe there was some litiga
tion pending with regard to the water
rights or claims of oue cf the plan
Fisher: Wailuku. That limitation,
ve were told the other day, had Leen
settled by you. Now there has also
been an exchange made of certain
property to the plantation located In
the town for certain property or the
gc vernment outside of the town, 'lhe
statement was made there tnat tne
Below K printed some of the inter,
esllnir teotiuionr dnri ntr the Fisher
(hearings till- week.
Usher: Sir. Ashford. 1 believe we
have arranged to have the Governor
take up this time the more sjecific
items in the complaint in regard to
the Governor. Before doing that,
perhaps we ought to dispose of any
other matters which you have. Is
Ashford: There are some matters.
I should like to ask you J would like
to produce now, among others, a let
ter from Mr. R. Lougher, who is one
of the gentlemen who talked to us
at Hilo and is himself a planter, a
letter from myself and certain state
ments of argument in regard to the
proportion that should be allowed be
tween planter and mill, backed up by
some tables and figures. I have
shown them to the Governor and if
they consent I understand that they
may be placed on the record.
Fisher: Whatsis the substance
what does Mr. Lougher think should
properly be the proportion between
planter and mill.
Ashford: The statement is quite
short; perhaps I might read it (Reads
statement). He does not refer to his
figures there, although he does in
his letter to me. I notice that the
item is profit on planter's sugar per
Fisher: That is per ton of sugar?
Ashford: Per ton.
Mr. Fisher: That is, upon what
theory of division?
Ashford: The theory of the prices
that are generally prevailing now.
Fisher: Well that is $4 a ton for
cane on four cent sugar that is the
basis on which he figures his profit
Tlu,u' " before that, that would be about
ceni sugar, ne aiso quuies ueie uum ,
want to ak Mr. Lindsay any ques
tions? Ashford: You were attorney i;en'r
al durinu the Japanese strike. Mr.
I Lindsay: No. not during the Jap.
i anese strike.
j Lindsay: Yes. ' J
Ashford: Who was your predeces-1
; sor in office. Mr. Lindsay? j
j Lindsay: Mr. Hemenway. j
! Ashford: 1 would like to ask Mr.:
I Hemenway Mr. Hemenway, will
two matters had nothing to do with j you state whether, during the Japan
each other. Was that correct? j ee strike either you or the governor!
Lindsay: I have never heard rell or : commissioned Mr! Kinney and Mr. !
that exchange until yesterday. j Prosser or either of them as deputies;
r isuci . n u& nuuiuig iu mi . ui aiioriiey general.
the other? ! Hemenway: I did.
Lindsay: Absolutely nothing. j Ashford: Was that with or with-
Fisher: i wish you would tell us j out the sanction of the Governor?
what the situation was with regard Hemenway: Without it.
to this litigation there why you , Ashford: Where was he?
settled it and Hemenwav: I think he was on Ha-
the prospectus of the San Carlos Mill
ing Company. That is a Philippine
corporation that is, a Hawaiian cor
poration operating in the Philippines,
whereby he shows that their prospec
tus proposes to pay the planters CO
per cent, for their cane and the mill
ing company take only 40.
Mr. Fisher: In that connection, Mr.
Olson, I would like to have perhaps
some further testimony from Mr.
Ivers. Can we arrange that a little
Mr. Olson: Yes.
Mr. Fisher: 1 would like to get his
views on the form and terms of con
tract and also in regard to the immi
gration statutes. And Mr-Starrett,
the marketing superintendent, is' he
Air. Olson: Yes.
Mr. Fisher: Was there anything
else, Mr. Ashford.
Ashford: Yes, Mr. Secretary, but
with regard to this (showing letter).
Fisher: Yes, let that be; let that
ABhford: I don't know whether you
would care to have files perhaps you
may care to see photographs of the
residences of the members of the
Thompson Settlement Association,
Fisher: Very well.
Ashford: I undertook, as I remem
ber, to produce a certain letter writ
ten by Mr. Wolters, manager of the
Hutchinson plantation at Naalehu, of
fering to buy the lands of the home
steaders there. 1 have the original
here,- together with a certified copy of
it and of the reply. If the certified
copy is acceptea 1 would like very
much to withdraw the original.
Fisher: I see no reason why that
should not be done.
Ashford:' I have also copies of let
ters from two members of the v asso
ciation, Mr. Hayselden and Miss Tay
lor written tn Senator Hpwitt rinr'nz
the last term of the Legislature while Valley, and that thereafter for 2o
he was here in Honolulu, describim; ears we were to be allowed to take
the efforts of Mr. Wolters, the plan- 510,000 gallons of water every 24
tation manager there, to secure the hours, which as Mr. Pogue informed
assent of the members to a sale of rae would be more than wanted for a
the plantation. i ln time. He considered it a very
Fisher: That is in general corrob- splendid compromise and Mr. Kin
oration of the testimony given to us tey he didn't mind our getting a
on the ground' i sooa, generous snare oi me water;
Lindsay: When I came into of
fice, I found .that there had been an
injunction a bill for injunction
brought by the Wailuku Sugar Com
pany against the Territory and the
County of Maui, in which it was com
plained that we weTe diverting a
great deal more water than our share
from the Wailuku stream. The fact
were that sqme years ago, the Terri
tory had bought a small piece of land,
I think .it was about an acre and a
quarter, up in Iao Valley. Of this acre
and a quarter there was only threc
quarters of an acre entitled to water.
WThen the Territory bought this they
also bought another little piece of
land from the Wailuku Plantation and
built a reservoir and laid a pipe line
and started to take water and laid
pipes, made a little water works sys
tem for the town of Wailuku. The
complaint went on to state that we
took a little more and a little more
until, as a matter of fact, we were
taking a, gTeat deal more than we
were entitled to. About eight years
years now, the pipe line had burst at
the intake and without leave of any
one we simply shifted our pipe line
over to the plantation land, a place
where we had no right. Before I
came into office, there had been a
great many preliminaries, and just
the week I came into office, Mr.
Pogue, who is chairman of the Board
of Supervisors, and Mr. BaJ, Superin
tendent of Wailuku; WTater Works,
they came down and together with
Mr. Kinney, who was representing the
Wailuku Sugar Company and Mr.
Coke, James L., an attorney he at
that thime was County Attorney for
Maiil and by the way the County
was really the party interested in this
whole case; it was not so much the
Territory as the County of Maui
they came down and after a lot of
talks suggested that we compromise.
They .went back to Maui and figured
up how much we really were entitled
to. In fact, all we were entitled to
was the water from that three-quarters
of an acre and water to two or
three lots, like the court house lot
and the old church lot, but there
were a great many natives and ku
leana holders that were entitled to
water and our claim was that we
were taking their water but deliver
ing it to them through our pipes in
lieu of delivering it to them in the
open auwais. Anyway, v.ith the plan
tation and Mr. Pogue, who knows the
situation from the ground up, it was
finally agreed 1 should say before
this that after the suit, (the injunc
tion bill) had been commenced, the
county people, Bal and Mr. Pogue,
commenced buying or leasing "from
the kuleana holders their water
rights. Well, it was agreed that the
county should turn over all these,
leases and these water rights to the
Wailuku Sugar Company. We would
give the Winluku Sugar Company a
lease of that little kuleana in Iao
l.is fear was that if he did not bring
that suit, that by adverse possession
w-e would have gained that water.
Fisher: Very well.
Asnford: I am holding the original
of this letter. I have here, received Besides that 510,000 gallons of water,
since returning from Hilo, a lerer we also made a list of all those who
from a gentleman signing himself L. were entitled to water and who had
Malterre, whom I do not know, with previously been taking it through
reference to the Kuliamano homu- open ditches, and the Wailuku Sugar
stead tract in the district of Soi.tJi Company agreed to give us all of
Hilo, being a part of the land pre their water, which we would deliver
viously applied for by the Thompson to them through pipes. Then, if it
Settlement Association, which Jias should be necessary any time within
been recently divided up between otn- the next twenty-five years, if more
ers, and it is in that locality that tnis ! water should be necessary, theagree
Mrs. Bradley from whom you have a 'ment allows us to buy all the water
letter is located. The complaint i3 we want up to 2,000.000 gallons a
addressed to myself under date of day, at the rate of ten dollars a niii
September 23. (Reads.) ! Hon gallons. Considering that we
Now, Mr. Secretary, there were sell water at seven dollars a thousand
some matters that I would like to in- gallons, that would be a pretty good
quire about from the Attorney iion-
bargain, and the .case was settled.
eral before the Governor takes the1 Fisher: Now, Governor, there was
chair as I understand, and, if satis-'some land up there that was ex
factory to you, I would like to ask the '. changed for this land in the town
Attorney General a few questions. j what land was that, with reference to
Fisher: I understand that "on the this three-quarters of an acre the
other question of fact you intended to kuleana which the attorney general
rely upon the statement of the Gov-' has referred to?
ernor himself except insofar as in his j Governor: I have no recollection
statement he might raise some ques-j whatever of it.
tinn nf nrpnrnrv wWh hf tnijrht wish! Fisher: I understand the state-
waii or Maui.
Ashford: Did he return to town
during the time that those gentlemen
were acting in that capacity?
Hemenway: I believe he did.
Ashford: Did you acquaint him
with the fact?
Hemenway: I may have mentioned
it incidentally. '
Governor: I learned it before I re
turned to town.
Ashford: During that time can you
say whether those deputies of yours
were instrumental in procuring the
raiding of private premises and the
looking over of private safes and oth
er depositories of papers for the pur
pose of securing evidence for the
Hemenway: They were instrument
al in breaking open the safe, but that
was before they held the commission
from me as deputies attorney general.
Ashford: After they held that
commission they were still engaged
in that general enterprise.
Hemenway: They were prosecut
ing and were looking naturally for
evidence. I have good reason to be
lieve that they did not break open any
Ashford: How many did they
Hemenway: So far as I know, one.
Ashford: Isn't it a fact that they
actually broke open one with dyna
mite or other agency of that, .kind,
whereas another one they found the
lock was not shut, and they opened
that without the necessity of violent
Hemenway: That may be.
Ashford: What police officer, if any
was along, If you know, at the time,
and conducted the proceedings?
Hemenway: I think the High Sher
Ashford: That is, Mr. Wm. Henry?
Hemenway: Mr. Henry:
Ashford: You understand that he
was acting under the instructions of
Hemenway: I believe he was.
Ashford: During how long a period
did that series of acts occur?
Hemenway: About a day and a
Ahford: Did the administration,
either through yourself or through the
Governor, do any ting to discounten
ance those acts and restore the prop
erty and papers to te parties?
Hemenway: I might say that the
administration strongly disapproved of
tne methods which were followed, but
they did not return many of the pa
pers Ashford: And the administration,
of which you were at the head, name
ly the legal administration, went
ahead and used that evidence for the
Hemenway: We did.
Ashford: There was no search war
rant or tmything of the kjnd?
Hemenway: Not during this period.
Ashford: Do you know if there
were any considerable number of ar
rests made without warrants about
that same time and of that same
Hemenway: There were some, Mr.
.Ashford, I do not know how many?
Ashford: Do you know of a system
that was in vogute at that time of
taking a number of men into custody,
looking them in the station house,
hcldingt them for forty-eight hours un
der the pretext that the law allows a
man to be held for that long, and then
at the end of that time release him
end then rearrest him?
Hemenway: I do not know that
any such system as that was follow
ed. Ashford: Well, you practically gave
them full swing?
Hemenway: Yes, I left matters
very largely to the care of Mr. Kin
ney and Mr. Cathcart, Mr. Cathcart
being directly in charge of the general
Ashford: I think that is all I want
to ask of Mr. emenway.
Fisher: The Mr. Kinney you men
tioned, was that Mr. W. A. Kinney?
Governor: In the testimony in the
natter of the second safe, the owner
accompanied the, officer and it was
opened with his acquiesence. I learn
ed of those facts when I was on Ha
v aii and was very much put out. As
soon as I returned I ordered au in
vestigation. I disapproved very strong
ly and gave orders that nothing thit
the High Sheriff should not obey any
instructions of the attorneys without
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Olson: Mr. Hemenway, isn't it a ber of prisoners who were required?
fact that the evidence was objected to) Lindsay: As I recollect, I think there
on the ground of the manner in which j were over forty.
it was procured? j Olson: 78.
Hemenway: Yes, I believe so. Ashford: At whose instigation did
Fisher: Well, suppose the govern-; you make that requisition on the Cir-
inent was in possession of evidence rCuit iudre? "
to change. Now as to the attorney ' ment is now made that they had uojf-'st consulting either the Attorney
general, there was a matter that I connection how are tiny situated
was going to ask him about myself . i physically?
Perhaps vou had better cover that and' Governor: I think they are two or
then again take up the other matter . three miles apart
which you referred to.
Mr. Lindsay, your full name is?
Lindsay: Alexander Lindsay, Jr.
Fisher: So that it is perfectly clear
that the only land that the govern
ment owned was this acre and a quar-
General or myself. Mr. Kinney took
the entire responsibility of that mat
ter, and I think he is perfectly ready
to take the entire responsibility in the
Ashford: For whom was Mr. Kin
nev and Mr. Prosser actin? at tne
showing that a crime had been com
mitted. Do you think the government
would be permitted to surrender that
Fisher: And you are the attorney ' ter, of which three-quarters of an acre time?
general of the territory?
Fisher: How long have you been
Lindsay: About two years and a
was entitled to water.
Mr. Lindsay: That and a little
courthouse lot about which thp-v was
a question as to whether it owned any
Fisher: Now, Mr. Ashford, do you
Lindsay: The way that came about
was: Mr. iosser and Mr. Ballou came
to me and told me that they had for
nearly a week been trvlne to get a
hemenway: The Governor strongly ! lot of witnesses to testify before the
disapproved. He expressed his opin-j cran(j jury asainst Craig and another
ion in no uncertain terms. - man for violating our immigrant stat-
Asaiora: .Mr. i.masay, ai me ume,uttf an(j tnat they had had subpoenas
of the so-called labor strike, in the iSCUV(i it the Federal authorities
spring of mi, were you then Attor- wcuId not an0w them to be served
ney General? ovtr OI1 Quarantine Island, where
Lindsay: Yef. these men were stationed. They told
Ashford: And you personally, in J me that these men whom they" wanted
your capacity as Attorney General, were going away that day, I think, on
l ney Were acting I QO uiaue appuuaiiim iu me V-iruuit juugc ! i"e steai.ici nuia.
for the arrest of a large number ofj
Ashford: Wasn't it generiily un-! persons, upon the allegation that they
dt rstood that they were acting for the ! were required as witnesses?
so-called planters' association? Lindsay: I did.
Governor: I presume so. Ashford: Do you remember the num-
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