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I I AN HiRVE fhe War of Words on the Silver Question Continues at Chicago. HOIT nr and Harvey Give Each Other Some Hard Nuts.to Crack. Chicago, July 24. '-Hack dates" weie thrown to the dogs to-day In the debate between Horr and Harvey. It was lore than ever a case of Greek meets Greek, and Interest In the tug-of-war heightened ftt once when It was seen that the days of Jerielo as well as 179'.!, 1816, 1873 and other years, no matter how historic or im portant, were all barred more or less iu favoi of 1S9C. Mr. Horr opened the dispute with a wrlt teu aigunient touching the impoaalMl'ty of maintaining a fixed rule between god and silver Mr. Hnrvcy charged that Senator Morrill erred In saying that no silver dol lars had been coined for forty years prior to 1873. Mr. Harvey read from the report of the director of the mint, showing that silver dollars in greater or less amounts had been coined nearly every year. Mr. Hcrr said that Mr. Morrill had not meant to say that not a dollar had been coined, but that none to speak of had been. Mr. Harvey submitted a table to show that, from 1687 up to 1873 the commercial ratio hail remained remarkably close to the legal ratio, notwithstanding the demonetiza tion of it by England and another of the great nations of the old world. Mr. Horr said this matter of ratio had little or nothing to do with the question. The fact was that all of the civilized na tions of the world refused to recognize sil ver and would only receive it at its bullion value, measured in gold. What might be If the otlur nations should join in admitting silver to free coinage was one thing for us to attempt it alone was another. Mr Horr then took up the proposition of Mr Harvey's book, that making a dollar of one-half the present value would double the value of everything In the United States except debts. Mr. Horr pronounced this absurd, saving we might as well say that if we cut our yardsticks in two It would double the amount of cloth iu the country. Mi Hi.rvey argued th.it both gold and silver were the measures of value until 1873 He asked whether, if half the gold in the world were destroyed, the val/ie of the gold dollar would uot be double-?. Mr Horr shook his head. Readmitting Silver to Coinage. Mr Hon-, in reply to the charge that the demonetization of silver cut the value of products iu two. said that If that were true price* would at once have dropped 50 per cent. The fact was that they did not. Mr. Horr said that Mr. Harvey did not care for ratio What he wanted was a cheap dollar and the cheapening of the emolu ments of labor. That was the most pros perous country in which its workmen were best paid Mr Horr said it was in 1S79 that we re sumed specie payment*, and the only mon ey of tinal redemption was gold. He asked, was distress abroad in the laud from that on? The fact is, the years from 1879 to 1892 found our people better employed and at better wages than in any other same number of years since the government was formed. (Applause.) Mr Harvey: "As to the prosperity of this country between 1S79 and 1892, you could not break down a great nation like this in one year. A change in relative production had no effect as long as the mints were open to the two metals." (Ap- plause.) Mr. Horr: "I have never said that the cheap price of silver was not on account of its ovei production. Silver has become cheap in this world just precisely the same as heat and iron and zinc and lead and other articles have been cheapened, just precisely for the same reason. (Applause.) All of these articles have been cheapened by the natural laws which govern the production of every substance know to the producers in the world W. D. Wilson of Chicago: "How about gold?" Mr Horr- "Gold the same. I am glad you asked me. Gold has depreciated in value in less than 100 years 50 per cent. It is cheaper now than it was in 1873. What I find fault with is that the silver men invariably leave out of their calcula tions this article of labor, and the article of labor is the greatest article known in the civilized world Cut down the pay of labor and you paralyze the entire business of any nation. Mr. Harvey: "Mr. Horr says that every thing has been cheapened, including gold. To say that gold and products cheapen simultaneously is a financial contradiction. You buy gold by exchanging f-ther property for it. When it takes uore jroperty to buy ?old than formerly gold uas 'Len In stead of becoming cheaper, gold has be come dearer. That is the case now. And yet, Mr. Horr, by sophistry, reasons that It has become cheaper He says 10 the laboring man. You can buy more with a gold dollar now than you ever could, and then turns to you and says that gold is growing cheaper all the time." This ended the debate for the day. Settled by Sherman. Mansfield, Ohio, July 22.In the Harvey Horr debate at Chicago on Satuiday Mr. Horr said there was a provision in the act of 1S73 for a 3.Q4-gruln dollar worth five francs, which was afterwards struck out in the senate before the bill was passed. Mr Harvey denied that it was struck out by the sen.te and said that if it were so he would stop the debate right there. In an interview to-day Senator Sherman stated that this provision was added to the bill after it reached the house at the instiga tion of the citizens of California, who pro duce both gold and silver, but that it was struck out when the bill reached the sen ate. Mr Sherman also disputed a number of Mr. Harvey's .statements. '"htcfigo, July 25The seating capacity of the rooms of the Illinois club was all taken up when the Horr-Harvey debate opened to-day. While the size of the rooms not permit a large audience, the officers of the club are compelled every day to re fuse many applications for seats. The day's talk was opened by Mr. Har vey. He said that the debate of tho last session was of value as showing that dur ing the last forty years silver had been steadily coined in spite of the assertion to the contrary that by the table copied from the reports of the mints, the commercial ratio between gold and silver had been maintained at about the French coinage ratio of lSVi to 1 for 200 years that during the twenty-two years since 1S73, as the re sult of the demonetization, the commercial ratio bad declined to 32 to 1 that in the 338 years prior to 1873 the quantity or ratio between gold and silver had ranged from 06 of silver to 1 of gold, to 4 of silver to 1 of gold, and that during all that time the commercial ratio had clung closely to the legal ratio. During all that time the com mercial price of silver bullion had re mained steady. Since 1873 it had steadily and rapidly decreased. It was the dom inating influence of London exchange to all parts of the world which led to gold being recognised by the world as the standard In all commercial transactions. the world was about $2 per ounce, while some put it much higher. Mr. Horr pointed out that there had been a vastly increased production at greatly reduced prices. At the cost which Mr. Harvey spoke of, the silver miners In threb years would lmve lost over $100,000,000. Again, Mr. Harvey had put the aggregate amount of silver iu the world at about $3,000,000,000. It was estimated that tLere was about $6,000,000,- 000. Mr. Harvey had said the debts of the United States had amounted to about $40,- 000,000,000. This, Mr. Horr said, Was a Absurdity. Mr. Harvey said that the amount of sli ver referred to by him in his book was tho amount available for coinage. For tho reat^ he proposed to pursue the ordluary course and answer the questions as they came. Mr. Harvey theu distributed a table showing the production of gold and silver from 1702 to 1892, and proceeded to argue that in spite of wide relative fluctuations la production, there,had been no fluctuation in relative value till after the demonetiza tion act in 1873. He then proceeded to argue that, except in -the legal relation or weight, there should be no difference in the treatment of sliver and gold. He said that the government was the creator of money and had the right to regulate the thing created to the extent of fixing relative ra tios, but it had no right to take from the legal tender quality of any money created. Mr. Horr continued his Objections, to Mr. Harvey's statement in his books. He took up the supposition that the government wanted 100,000 horses. Its competition would increase the value of horses that free coinage of silver would increase the value of the bullion. Mr. Horr said that all the government did to silver was to put a stamp on the bullion and return it to the owner. Suppose the government should merely call for 100,000 horses for the pur pose of affixing a brand to them, and having done so, should return them to the owners, would that increase the value of the horses of the country? The horse ar gument, Mr. Horr declared, was a fraud. The speaker then took up the matter of the elements which govern the price of wheat, arguing that Mr. Harvey's deductions wee faliacicus. Mr. Harvey said that this government had fixed the pr ce of gold, and all the fr ends of sliver wanted was! for it to fix the pilce of silver, in the belief that the nation could better keep out of the hands of the pawn broker with two metals than one. Returning to h's argument on bimetallism, Mr Harvey said that the option of the debtor to pay in the cheaper metal should not be impaired. This would always main tain a parity. If the creditor were given the option of the money iu which he should be paid, he wou'd demand the dearer money, thereby increa'lng th^ maud for that metal and deci easing the other, there by widening instead of nariowing the dls paiity. Continuing, Mr. Haivey declaied that all nature was bimetall c. Man had two legs, two arms, two eyes, two ears. He declared there were available for coin age iu the wor'd about sixteen ounces of silver to one ounce of gold. Quotes Minnesota Statistics*. Replying, Mr. Horr took up the question of farm tenancy, whoso growth Mr. Harvey at an earlier stage of the debate had ad verted to as a bad sign in our national life. Mr. Horr declared it a good sign, and quoted from statistics gathered by the State of Minnesota, showing the steady evolution of the tenant into the land owner, and from other statistics showed that the in crease in the number of tenants had been accompanied by a decrease in the number of farm day laborers. The increase in ten ancy had not been nt the expense of the farm owners, but at the expense of the day laborers Mr. Harvey declined to discuss what he called the "tenant business," but promised that he would take it up when he got to it. He then went on to say that there were two kinds of money in the general sense in v/iiich the word is used, one being primary mouey und the other representative money, or, as he vyould call it, for tho purposes of the debate, "credit money." This latter kind of money is divided into paper money and token money, which includes copper cents and nickel 5-cent pieces. No attempt is made to maintain the commercial parity of these metals at any ratio with the metal out of which primary money is made. Token money is used to pay for articles whose value is less than that at which we coin primary money. Primary money is the measure of value. Gold, Mr. Harvey said, is now our measure of values, and our rep resentative money is tied to it as the tail of a kite. He then matte a short argument showing that supply and demand regulate the value of money, the same as of all oth er property. Mr. Horr announced that before proceed ing to the question of the production of silver he wanted to say a few words on the misleading nature of some of Mr. Harvey's statements on finance. He then attacked assertions made by Mr. Harvey as to the as sessed valuation of national banks. He then declared that Mr. Harvey was wander ing from the question in debate, because he had several times declared that if the mints of the world would give Free Coinage of Silver Mr. Horr, in his opening remarks, pro ceedod to call attention to what he called was preaching, as it had been denoni nate I misleading statements In Mr. Harvey's book. For Instance, he declared to be untrue the statement that it was believed that the coat of producing all of the gold in favored the silver standard. on a certain ratio it' couid oe maintiin?_d. Mr. Horr said that was not the question to be considered at all, but whether, if the entire civilized world has refused to use silver as money of final redemption and still refuses to use it, can the United States, single-handed and alone, aftord to put itself on a silver basis and join Mex ico, China and Tripoli upon ^he subject. He then submitted the table of gold and silver since 1874, taken from Mr. Jl.mey's books, and added to it the mint reports of the years 1893 and lN4 This table showed, Mr. Horr declared, fiat sirce 1874 the production of silver lias been steadily on the increase, and that jc^id las since 1875 been also on the 1 in-roav, tut while silver lrid increased juaiulty three times during that period ^old i ,\1 only doubled in quantity. Mr. Harvey went back to Hie 'ilseussion of primary money as a measure of -value. Iu 1S67, he declared, all the money in ir culation was $18.28 per capita, and in 1872 it was $19.19 per capita, and those tines all money was primary money, tue mcistpe of value being paper money itself. Jn W 4 we had a per capita circulation -Z $2i23. He then said: "Now, you will say that die 'I'm-'J^y of money in circulation affects p'-i-es. You have more money, primary and credit com bined, in circulation in 1894, per .ipita than you had in the two years .lamed pre vious to 187.3, and yet prices were lumber then than now. Why? because ih-v was more primary money per capita iu circula tion at the two first named yus iha*i there is in the last named vear. 1S94 Of the $24 per capita in ciren'.a'mi all money in 1*5)4, onlv. about is primary money, while iu ls,17 and 1872 lliere was $18 primary-money in circnlati JII :r cap- ita." Specie Payment. Mr. Horr said Mr. Harvey de'ini Ion of primary money was money of leddnption. Greenbacks had to be re lo^m^d to make them good, and tin cou'd not by any book or crook be construed In'o prim a-y nirn.y. Mr. Horr then slid: "Now, in 1879 we dl 1 nturn t- pee'e payment we did nvk- our greenbacks ami all our money as good .as the b^st. and Brother Harvey and his whoe cowd of ad herents were going vp and down this coun try stating thiit If we undertook 1o enforce that act we would rrin the business of the country. I know they slid it. beciuse I heard them do so dozens and do/ens of times. They believed it, just rs Harvey does now." Mr. Harvey: "Yeu did nit hear in say it." Mr. Horr: "Well, if you we-e old noug'i you did say it* A men constituted as you are could not have sa anything cls\" Mr. Horr declared that the 4 su1" be by Mr. Harvey, was upheld by every civil Ized nation on the earth, und that only such countries as China, Mexico and Japan ^M i* r-m^ -'4^&i^^ Mr. Harvey denied that Mr.' Horr was justified in calling him a greenbacker, and said that ho believed In gold and silver n primary money to the fullest exteut undpr bimetallic laws that governed it nrlor to 1S73. In relation to the claim of Mr. Horr that all the civilized nations of the earth were in favor of the gold standard, Mr. Harvey said that all the civilized nations of the earth were at one time slave-holding nations, and the individual slaveholders had made precisely the argument advanced by Mr. Horr. He then went back to credit and redemption money, and declared that credit money may be issued by the gov ernment with safety only In such quanti ties as will not embarrass It in case a run Is* made on the gov ernment for redemption. If tho gov ernment requires redemption money It can float bonds among Its own people to the full amount necessary to obtain what primary money it needs. No government should ever borrow from the people of an other nation. To do so was a cofesslon of monetary weakness. No government, he de clared, should issue credit money In quan tity beyond the amount of primary money among its own people, and It should have no money in Its treasury except for Its cur rent expenses and improvements. The money should be among the people. This closed the debate for to-day, and an adjournment was taken until Thursday. Chicago, July 2C"Go it, husband go it, bear," seemed to be the motto in the Illinois club to-day. The audience at the Horr-Harvey controversy appeared to be rapidly developing the feeling of the West ern matron whose fighting enthusiasm on an exciting occasion overcame her other emotions. The husband and the grizzly re ferred to could hardly have attempted more thoroughly to rip each other up the back and elsewhere than did Messrs. Horr and Harvey this afternoon. Mr. Horr opened the discussion. He be gan by saying that the 412% grain silver dollars coined between the years 1853 and 1873 were all coined at the Philadelphia mint and from foreign silver coins which had accumulated In the treasury under an act of congress which made them receiv able but did not permit them to be paid out again. That was why sliver was coined at less than its bullion value. After 1853 the government did not coin a dollar of our silver for private owners. Mr. Harvey, in reply, denied the state ment and declared that he could prove it. He presented a mint statement showing that over $400,000 in silver dollars had been coined at the mint at Carson City, Nov., In 1870. Mr. Harvey then resumed the dis cussion of the question of primary and credit money He said that as soon as there was an over-issue of credit money it caused distrust of the government's ability to pay. This caused a run on the treasury for the redemption of credit money, and the only remedy' was to either increase the amount of primary money or decrease the amount of credit money. The amount of gold in the United States was estimated at from $400,000,000 to $600,000,000 and of our credit money about $1,000,000,000. This was too much credit money, he said, and accounted for the country's financial derangement. The remedy was to increase the primary by remonetizing silver. Every moment's delay would endanger the safety of the republic. Dillerence in Figure*. Mr. Horr, replying, called atention to a misstatement of the coinage at the Carson City fnint. Instead of $412,492, the sct.a.1 amount was $12,492. Mr. Harvey said that he had mistaken tho $ mark for a figure 4 and admitted his error. Mr. Horr continued by saying that up to the present Mr. Harvey had not said a single word in proof of the actual subject in dispute. He had argued at length that the act of 1873 was conceived in sin and brought forth in corruption, but he had not brought any proof of It and could not it did not exist. History showed that a varia tion of a fraction of 1 per cent between the commercial and legal ratio between gold and silver always drove the dearer metal out of the market. Now, with a difference of 50 per cent, what evidence was there that a concensus of the civilized nations England exceptedcould bring them to a parity much less, how could the United States alone do it. Mr. Horr declared that Mr. Harvey's object was not so much to build up silver as to pull down gold, as was shown by his provision for reducing tho size of the gold dollar. Mr. Harvey, referring back to the silver coinage between 1853 and 1873, said that the silver coined at Philadelphia was coined into subsidiary money, not dollars. He added that the premium on silver was a pre mium at London, and that transportation charges would more than eat that up so the bullion owners in this country would take it to the. mints for coinage. Taking into consideration bank credits and checks and the amount of money in circulation, the normal amount of money necessary for the transaction of the business of the country, continued Mr. Harvey, was four thousand eight hundred million dollars. Of this one third only was in money and the rest wras borrowed. The inference was plainthe normal amount of money which we should have was four thousand eight hundred million dollars. As matters now stand, he said, the banks were lending and getting interest on two dollars for every dollar in circulation. Something Rich Promised. Mr. Horr said that the question whether the banks were a curse to the country would be discussed in its proper place, and Mr. Harvey would probably be disgusted with himself when it was done for having brought the matter up. Returning to the discussion, Mr. Horr said that statistics showed that 122 manufactured articles had depreciated in value since 1879 an average of 7 per cent silver had depreciated 50 per cent. Some other articles had depreciated as much, owing to special conditions. Taking up the statement in Mr. Harvey's book that it had cost $2 per ounce to pro duce the silver in the United States. Mr. Horr characterized it as nonsense. He pre sented statistics of different mines, collated by M. L. Scudder, showing that c.e mine had produced at 12 cents per ounce: anoth er at 24 cents. The silver miners would uot have continued to mine silver at a cost of $2 per ounce when the product was only 60 cents. Mr. Harvey, In turn, said that what Mr. Horr had said about the cost of producing silver he could have said with much more force with regard to gold. Silver was only produced from quartz most of the gold was produced from placer mines It costs less, dollar for dollar, to produce gold than sil ver. He read from a book by Alex. Del Mar an opioion that, pound for pound, it cost more to produce silver' than gold, or, dollar for dollar, i6 to 1. Why did men continue to mine silver at a loss? Why did men gamble on the boards of trade, where a large majority lost? It was the gambling instinct implanted in the human breast. Another thing: Much of the silver pro duced ws produced in conjunction with gold mining, and a large proportion of the silver production was the result of attempts to develop mines which proved failures In the end, and the losers, were disposing of their output to save something out of the wreck. There were, he declared, only three or four sliver mines in operation in the country, and they were having a precarious exist ence, liable to close any week. Mr. Harvey then denounced Mr. Scudder as a tool of the banking Interests, sent out to the silver country to defame his nation. Mr. Horr Denies It. Mr. Horr declared that the statement that it cost more to produce a pound of silver than a pound of gold was not true, and had not been true for a great many thou sand years. It was true, he said, that, as measured in human toil, both gold and silver had depreciated in value but silver had depreciated much faster than gold. Mr. Horr then presented statistics for a se ries of years in substantiation of the de preciation of gold, showing the prices of agricultural products and the wages of labor. Mr. Harvey took up the subject and pro ceeded to argue that advances In the price of! grain under a gold basis In tho years quoted had resulted either from short crops or iu the increased demand brought about by finding new use for It. Mr. Harvey said the banks should go out of the government business instead of the government going out of the banking business. Let the banks be banks of dejioslt and discount and not makers of money. They are making now with bank credit, and you' are paying them Interest for it. This argument that confl uence and not money is all that is wanted, If made by the greenbacker, would be ridi culed by these same men. Confidence won't buy anything it will get a man in debt to a banker, that is all. You might as well talk about doing without air and water as to ta\k about doing without money. There Is no'condition of civilization that you can Imagine by which you can be a part of that civilization and yet do without money. (Applause.) And yet by the legislation in 1873 it has been enhanced in exchangeable value with your property. That Is the crucial point in this financial discussion. (Applause.) A man loaning money in 1872 that 1,000 bushels of wheat would have paid, you must how give 2,000 bushels of wheat to pay that debt. (Applause.) The men who own bonds payable iu money and securities payable lu money aggregating more than all the assessed values of the property In the United States, have legis lated so as to enhance the value of their property until you have got to give up twice as much to them when they come to buy your property as they give up to you when you go with your hard earnings, with the product of your loom and your field, to buy their property. Cross-Fire of Wordn. Mr. Horr: "Now I want to call the at tention of my friend to the fact that he can't get at how farmers are doing sim ply by selecting one article which hap pens to be cheap." Mr. Harvey: "I want to ask you right here, before these people, to answer my argument made just before I sat down." Mr. Horr: "I am going to do It if you will wait and keep still. That is what I am up here for now (laughter). The very last thing he said was in reference to the fact that a farmer had to give twice as much wheat to pay his debt as he did be fore the demonetization of silver. What ails you? That is the very thing I am speaking about. Now, I was stating that you can't possibly find out the facts in ref erence to the farmer simply by taking one article, and that the lowest one you can find. Now, I will call your attention to a confirmation of the figures which I have heretofore given. Those figures show that prices for farm products, all fallen together, you know, have not declined. Here in the United States, comparing the present values to those of twenty years ago. I find my confirmation in an analysis of na tional wealth by the great statistical au thority, Mr. Mulhall, so often quoted by Mr. Harvey. In the June North American Review, Mr. Mulhall says that the aver age yearly accumulation of the agricultural workers, per capita, of the United States, was for the decade, 1861 to 1870, $17.90 each. Mr. Harvey"Will you pardon me" Mr. Horr"Doni bother me. For the de cade 1870 to 1880, $47.10 per capita and for the decade 1S81 to 1S90, $47.50 per capita. Here is au ability on the part of the farm ers of this country to save in the last cen sus decade nearly three times as great as in the decade before the silver legislation of 1873." Mr. Harvey"Did not you have that writ ten before you left New York? He says we have increased in wealth. Nobody dis putes that. The United States has not only been ft workshop in producing wealth, but it has been a sweat shop (applause.) It has been producing wealth, but have the men who produced that wealth got the wealth? The rich men are controlling the legislation of America and the old world, and there is no plan by wThich European civilization can rise from under it, and when we have passed four or eight years further along there will be no way for us to rise from un der it. We are making in the United States to-day the last stand of free men in the civilization of the" world." The answering of questions occupied much of the remainder of the day, the debate finally being adjourned at Mr. Hdrr's request till Saturday at 1 p. m. Not Talking? for Money. Because of some reports which have gone out regarding the Harvey-Hoir silver de bate. Judge Henry G.' Miller, Who is one of the judges of the debate, has given out the following: "Chicago, July 16.-I am about to enter into a debate with Mr. Horr of New York on the financial subject, which is to be printed in book form and from wh'ch, as by the business arrangements connected there with, I am to receive profits from the sale thereof. I do not wish these profits my self, but do desire that they be used in the cause I represent, where money is much needed therefore, I hereby assign all profits that I may receive from the sale of said book to Judge Henry G. Miller of Chicago and W. J. Cheney of Philadelphia as trus tees, whose duty it will be to to require an accounting of me, and upon receipt of the money to spend the same in the interest of the re-establishment of silver and in the educational campaign which is being made for that purpose. I reserve the right to substitute new trustees in case either or both of said gentlemen should refuse or be disabled to act. -W. H. Harvey." Chicago, July 27The last day but one of the Ilarvey-Horr silver contention began this afternoon. Mr. Horr opened the day's talk with a comparison of the wages and the cost of products during the years from ISb'O to 1890 as shown in a table prepaied by Statis tician Carroll D. Wright. With wages and prices in 1S60 taken as the index, or 100, it showed that in 1SC0 the prices were 92. wages 159, and the purchasing power of wages 172. Mr. Hon- pioceeded to arccue that at no time in the history of the i a'ion was the country so prosperous a it was at that time iu spite of the "crime of 1873" He submitted that the statistics were more applicable to the conditions un der discussion than those of Mr. Sauerbeck, quoted by Mr. Harvey on Thursdav, as Mr. Sauerbeck's figures were made from prices in England. Mr. Harvey in turn took up the matter of the prices of wheat for a "-eries of years, in reply to Mr. Hurt's statement of Thurs day that the farmer had received as much for his produce in gold i he had received when sllvr was d^monrt z?d. For answer he quoted the prices from year to year. He declared that the nrgvnients of Mr. Horr were those which had been up'i in all time to bulwark tyrannv. The decara t.on of indepen lencc was the proper answer to such arguments. Mr. Haivey proceeded by saying that the proper index of ptices was to measure the ma aitides of in ternational use. Tables made up bv sold men even on th"*" articles showed thai they were lower than in 1SV Referring to Mr. Horr's argument torn ng the mens ure of value in human toil. Mr. limey quoted from an article by Mr. Horr in a paper in reply to a corresponlent suggest ing the ui'ikiim of so much wor\ the equivalent of a dollar Mr. Horr t'ec aivd the proposition absurd and confusing. Mr. Horr said that Mr. Harvey had only quoted a brief extract and lr "1 not give the sense of the nrtlcl". 'I coir spnutf cnt rep'ied he did uot want eit :-o'd or silver money, but moivly brsed on nothing. It was only an the lcrui of 'h' socialistic ciazo an.l Mr. Haiv ould come to that in the en'. His dNeas had not reached its worst -tauo. It would come to socialism and ummhy Ji the ml. Mr. IJaivey's frl n'K 'r. t''e H-i.ee broke out in d'ssent :'t till ^tntemen' and Mr. Harvey decland that not word he had uttered wou'd jest'fy it. Mr. Horr deilated that the nilv n:'uus which his oppontnt had n( nred from his friends In the audience was when lie de nounced a large part of the people of the country as scoundrels and had asserted tliat the country was going to the tlogg. Mr. Horr then took up Ue Question of Bankft, which Mr. Harvey ou a former occasion had denounced. Ho admitted that there were corrupt banks, but the business of bank ing as carried on was the outgrowth of civilization and banks were a blessing. They made It possible for a gold dollar to do twenty tines as much as It could do otherwise. He had seen $119,000,000 of bus iness settled In three hours in the New York clearing houses and less than 5 per cent of it was done in money. If It had been necessary to count all of this money it would have taken au army of men and long days of work. Mr. Harvey, replying, presented a table of failures showing the failures in the coun try for a series of years. He pointed out that during the war, when the circulating medium amounted to $40 per capita, fail ures had been reduced to a minimum. As the circulating medium decreased failures increased. The nation owed it to Itself to get rid of this great amount of bank credit and substitute money for it. The interest on $10,000,000 of debts to the banks was the equivalent of the amount of the annual failures. Mr. Harvey quoted figures as to the number and mileage of railroads In the hands of receivers, the comparatively large Increase of tenant farmers over owning farmers In 1890 over 1880, as shown by the census returns, and the great percent age of housekeepers who are renters, not owners. Mr. Harvey said: "I now read you from page 262 of the February, 1895, number of Lippiucott's Magazine in a com parative review of the census of 1880 with that of 1890: 'In forty-seven states and territories the number owning farms In creased 158,951 and the number of tenant farmers increased 599,337. In 1880 25.62 per cent of the farms were cultivated by tenants, in 1894 34.13 per cent of the farms were hired.' I refer to thl because Mr. Horr used some detached statements Concerning Minnesota Farms the other day, which must be regarded as very incomplete. I have read you a com parison ot the tables for the whole United States." (applause.) Mr. HorrSo did I follow It with the whole. Mr. HarveyI did lot so understand it. Mr. HorrWell, you did not read that I said then. Did not pay attention gave the whole. Mr. HarveyDid you have your book here, the book you read from? Mr HorrI don't remember about that. Mr. HarveyYou have not been having the books here? Mr. HorrWhy, the bulk of the books I can't get because you tave got *hem out of the library and keep thetn. I have never been able to get them. (Applause and laughter.) Mr. HarveyThere are eight or ten pub lic libraries in this city all having the books that we are using in this debate. And the books that I have had here have been on this table for Mr. Horr's use if he wanted them. No such subterfuge as that will save the gentleman in making quotations in this debate, the authorities for which he has not produced here for our inspection. (Applause.) I nowr read you, Mr. Horr, on this subject from the Census Bulletin of the ceusus of 1890, now in my hand. I read jou this paragraph: "New York is the congested part of a large urban region and a greater New York may more fairly be taken into considera tion. Iu New York city and the nine counties in New York state and New Jer sey that are neighboring to that city 81.54 per cent of the home fainilj.es are tenants." Now as to your city of New York: "The highest degree of city home tenancy is in New York and is represented by 93.67 per cent." Ninety-three and sixty-seven hundreths per cent of the families in your city are tenants. Mr Horr1 have this to say in reference to my conduct of this debate without bringing in my books, and I allude to that reminding you of the gusto, for which Brother Harvey is so peculiar, with which he says: "I now pass the book over to Mr. Horr," when he knows that It Is im possible for me during the excitement of the debate to examine and look into the merits of the book or his references. The only times when I have done it, I have caught him in misquoting the book and made him own it right here before the audience Mr. HarveyMr. Horr, that is not true. Mr. HorrThe audience knows whether that is true or not. Mr. HarveyThe rceord of the debate will show it. Incrcnse of Gold. Mr. Horr said that he would admit that the quantity of gold in the wTorld had not increased as fast as the business of the world but it was not necessary. One hundred dollars would now do more than two thousand dollars would formerly. Ninety-five per cent of the business was done without the use of gold except as a standard of measure. He illustrated the case by citing a stream on which there was an old-fashioned mill. Let other modern mills be constructed along this stream and by using the same water the output would be vastly increased. Mr. Harvey, replying, made another ap plication of the comparison of the stream to money. 'Suppose, he said, that mills had been built along the stream and their ma chinery adapted to it. Theu suppose that suddenly one-half of the flow of that stream Were cut off. How would it affect the mills? Suppose, again, that certain per sons should divert the water of this stream, store it in great reservoirs and charge the mills a toll for its use. That would be a parallel case to that of the relation of the people and the banks at present. Mr. Harvey gave figures showing the number of homicides in the United States from 1SS2 to 1891. the number of suicides, the number of convicts in prison, etc. He attributed these to decreasing wages and the increasing value of money. He said he pointed out these things be cause they indicated a national disease a disease threatening the life of the re public. It was necessary to honestly diag nose the disease in order to apply the remedy. All republics had fallen from the same causes. When they reached a point where the control of the necessaries of life fell into the hands of selfish men. a monarchy became logical and necessary. 'The masses became restlessw Re cause ,they have become poor because they have en deprived of the necessaries of life. They become restless, then comes crime, as I am now giving you from the statistics in this debate. Then come pover ty and suicide and insanity. The country goes morally and politically crazy. Then comes the Necessity of Martial Lan'i then comes the necessity for Gatling guns and repeating rifles, for an increase of the police and for a standing army. In the last three or five months, and for the first time in the history of thj United States, gen eral order has gone from the piesident of the United States to the commander of the army, laying down rules for governing the United States army in the control of mobs and riots. (Anplause.) We are trending to monarchy, and It Is wrong for Mr. Horr or any other man to shut his eyes to this de fect In our civilization that I am now pointing out. If you would save liberty in this land, if vou would' preserve thK the United States, from the fate of Europe, It is your duty to do it, nnd It should become your pleasure to do it, and to do it you will act like intelligent men and yon will act like freemen." (Applf.nse.) Mr. Horr"I could not stop him, because he was enjoying himself so well. He gets so much comfort out of denouncing the human race that I was letting him revel in his glory." Mr. Horr said that the panic of 1893, whose effect Mr. Harvey had dilated on, was chiefly due to a fear on the part of the people of this country of a return to the silver standard. Mr. Harvey, said Mr. Horr, had laid the crucifixion of the Savior at the door of the money power among the Hebrews. The record showed that the Savior- was betrayed' by Judas, th* only silver man among the twelve, and, If should be noted, Insisted on a ratio of 30 to 1. As to the diversion of half of the water from the stream, Mr. Horr said that If the other half furnished all of the water needed the mills would not be affected at all. Mr. Harvey, replying, said that un.der the bank credit system we had always had panics, nnd we always would have them. The panic of 1857 was not due to a change in the coinage, but to the bank credit sys tem. In answer to Mr. Horr's statement that the great mass of the debts of the na- rag tion were short-time debts, and therefore S not contracted before the passage of the de- ^gl monetlzation act, Mr. Harvey quoted from M|| the Bankers' Magazine, showing an aggre- uM gate In a half-dozen of the larger long-time ^M debts of $19,000,000. Too Bad! -J$ Mr. Harvey and: "This debate is coming to"^g i a close virtually to-day, because on Monday I ~4~ shall speak exclusively upon the independent action i of the United States." Mr. Harvey denied Mr. $ Horr's assertion that falling prices were the re- mtt State* 1 that i suit of improved facilities. Said he: "It is the supply produced and the demand for it that regu- \*p lato the price of such products. Suppose a widow, .Jjff owning a farm, receives the voluntary assistance j^4 of her neighbors to raise and harvest her wheat crop. Will her wheat be worth any less than the price fixed by the quantity^ wheat In exist- c^T5* ence known to the traders, and the estimated -p demand for It? II all the corn-crop Sn the United States were destroyed except the crop in Iowa, would the Iowa crop be governed by the cost of production or the relative supply and demand for corn? The cost of the product has nothing to do with it. A man may produce an ounce of gold s.M for 10 cents that is worth $20. The fact that it '3| cost him 10 cents does not make it worth leas Jfj than $20." *&8 Mr. Horr: "Mr. Harvey is mystified because he *.'l takes it for granted that the business of a country *^T. entirely depends upon the amount per capita of -j the circulation medium. He insists that if you pl.rink that yon ruin the business in the country. ~gm Thei are a large number of men who believe j?*, that doctrine, but no more transparent humbuic T.& was ever taught the people of this or any other *J| country. Money is a plethora in this country to-day. There are hundreds of millions of dollars ^& lying idle, simply becaube there is nobody to use f&t it. Did you know that? Why, my friend Harvey ^jffi and all of you men who think that way as usual get the cart before the horse. It Is not an abund- 4, ance of inoney that makes business active it is business that makes money active in this world of ours. (Applause.) Ami until you can comprehend that point. Brother Harvey, you will never un derstand this financial question at all." (Laugh- ter.) Mr. Hon- explained that the sufficiency or lack of sufficiency had much to do with the question of banking facilities, the necessity of a large or small per capita circulation. This country has a per capita of $26.02. Canada only has $10 per capita, but Canada has an elegant banking sys temno better on the face of the earth than the Canadian system of utilizing banks. Switzerland, one of the most prosnerous little nations on the face of the globe, has only $14.48, about half as much as this country has. The ratio of money to the population proves nothing. What we need In the United States is good wages for work, steady employment for our men, and we have got money enough to do tw Ice the business we are doing to-day. (Applau&e.i Harvey- i Orgnniied Labor. Mr. Harvey: At the conclusion of this debate Mr. Horr and I have 2,500 words each at our disposal to write at our leisure within seven days after the debate, to sum up the debate, and any thing in Mr. Hoor's argument that I do not reply to to-day I will replj in that summary, because there is only a short time left to us and I want to answer some matters that have been intro duced into this debate at the earlier stages. I want to speak a few moments on the proposition that wages have increased. Speaking of organized labor Mr. Harvey siid: "Organization sustains wages for those actually employed while engaged at work, but when you average the wages by including the unemployed and include the expense and time lost, it does not do so. Make the calculation this way, and you wdl find that the gold basis has measured itself in wages with mathematical accuracy. This con dition is not healthy. It is not good for the country. It breeds strife. It creates loss to in dustry and labor it destroys manhood it makes criminals. The cause for it should be removed. (Applause.) The labor organizations will con tinue and have a right to continue as long as money is organized. But we should have a civil izatiou that would make it unnecessary for any organizations of that character to exist. In Eu rope wages have been forced down to the legiti mate level of the gold standard. The bayonet has been used to do it. Later it will do it here. The interest of the laboring man is on our side. We will hold his wages up without strikes or the expense of strikes. "As the gold of California and Australia raised his wages, so will the silver of our mountains as it pours into our metallic money stock as pri mary monev raise his wages. There will be work for all. nnd the strife for labor will cease. The man who now has work or situation and selfishly reasons that he benefits himself by main taining a dear dollar, is neither broad nor hu mane. He is assisting in wrecking his couintry and it may be too late to remedy the error when he too is without eruplovuient (Applause.) Tlie Pullman Wasrci*. Mr Harvey asked if we were not deceived about wages being incre. sed. Referring to the reported 10 per cent"advance in wages at Pull man, affecting 4,000 men, conceded by the com pany without demand by the toilers, Mr. Harvey/ said the facts are that there has been no advance in wages made at Pullman, and that Mr. Pull man himself admits that there was no advance made': that what tliej meant was that they had given the men that were at work about 10 per cent more work to do. They hrd previously been working only halt-time (Applause.) Mr. Harvey read a letter from Thomas I. Kidd, general sec retary of the machine woodworkers' international union, sajing: "If clothes and food embraced all the necessities of the laboring people, the dollar would unquestionably be of greater value to them than ever but they do not, and what the la borer may save by cheaper clothes and food is more than offset by mcrtased rent alone. When all things are considered the relative value of the dollar is no greater now thsn-in 1S65." Mr. Harvev went on- "One trouble that all labor willaccounrecognizethfotwnoo in the IT depressed cond'tion of aff.nrs laborers are not vvoikmg full time. The unions have succeeded in holding up the price per diem, but the men are not working more, say, than one half the time, which is making that much less iu dollars that thev are receivng." Speaking of tenantcy, Mr. Harvey baid: 'Twenty million acres of land in tne tinned States to-day is owned by English titled nobility, and the English land tenantcy hai to th. extent been already introduced into this country. In Illinois there Is a county by the name of Logan that has a countv seat by the name of Lincoln, and you can drive for miles through that county on your way to that county seat and have on lloth sides of vou Lord Seullv's posses sions, vvitli the Irish thatched cottages over the land." (Applause.) Mr. HorrI have traveled extensively, very ex tensivelv, through thirt-on states of this Union, and I never vet saw a single farm nor had my attention called to one that was owned by ieopl ^5, living outside of the inited States- There sre some, but thej are few. Mr. Harvev said- "The proposition is made by the gold staitd ird men that all of our efforts for the restoration of sii\er is for the inte-rests o.. silver bullion owners. It is not true. In our struggle to restore a sufficient volume of primary monev in tins countrv we have turned our atten tion io Silver to Klsnt tlie Wrong that was committed and to restore to the ieon* that which was the people's monev. irrespective of who owned that property. We do not object to gold, because the gold miners produce it, and the arguments that the gentleman makes about silver producers could be made with the same force about the gold producers. But I want to make another answer to it. I want to to you that the silver producers have not assisted in running this campaign. (Applause.) If they were assist ing nnj one it is reasonable to suppose that they had assisted me. I began 111v work in Ma lSSKJ. bv publishing a weeklv- paper, and commenced bringing out books in Dscember. 1MIS. I became chairman of the bimetallic executive committee of this state in the summer of 1SI)3. My com rilittee appealed personally and by letter to about all the silver mine owners in the West for dona tions to assist us. We did not receive a eent. At one time I sent out fortv-four letters to select ed names of as many prominent silver mine own ers who were supposed to be wealthy, such men as Moffit and .Shear of Colorado and Clark of Mon tana, and did not receive 0 cent from tbem. even enough to pay the post-age used on the let tore not even tlie courtesy of a reply, except from one. At the time I brought out 'Coin's Financial School,' I was in debt and had no monev left." In dosing the debate for the dav Mr. Harvey handed Mr. Horr. 11s a souvenir, a stiver dollar of 17!)l. with the word "unit" upon it. Mr.s. Harvev said: "Take it. Mr. Hoir. Washincton mav linve carried it in his iHK-ket: .lofferson may at one time have had it in his possession it may have paid for the paper on which the declaration of war was written in 1S12 against Jre Britain. It mav have been fondled by .Tackson when Writ ing his message to cong ess against tlie national -f bank. (Applause.) It is a tit souvenir tiv any*,. American proud of his country and of its in-/ stitutions to carrv in his iiocket all the davs ofiW his life." Mr. Harve.v passed the dollar t Mr. wf* Horr. lhen c.-ime shunts, cries of "hurrah." -3 continued applause. Mr. Horr, smiling: "I shall keep this dollar and put it to a gotxl use I intend to have a |S hole ixired through it. and then 1 hang it\j around the neck of my little gra-nlc-hild. lor just as we commenced this discussion. (Applause.) It will do brother Hr-vev good to 1MI that the^ people of tlie United States are still, in spite of the gold standard, marrying and giving in mar rlage, and that children are still lxvrii to us In spite of the silver, dollar. (Laughter and ap plause.) Adjourned till Mondnj at 1 p. in. X& ri *M- A-m