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' inquired as to Mr. Ryan"? motive? In mature
th purchase.
Mr. Ryan's explanation end the further ex
amination on this point were as follows
• I bad very large Interests that were sure to be
affected -seriously by any disturbance In theJ}nan
clal rttuaUon or confidence In >> p *: f^- °SPS Pt ual
disaster that mipht come. X saw in the ,y Irt
certainty of a receivership of the EqulOtb !«"«"■".
a disaster Impending unless, the factional f l *£ d
ence* In the company among . the directors
the management of the company -could be raaic.u
changed.- To avert this and to prevent the b Vfak
ful losses that would occur from the violent breaK
Ing up of th* Equitable, not only to the P°" ( z > |
holders but to the financial community at : »"«£ I
myself as well. I thought that some one oußht to |
undertake the change— the business— , \
Q. The acquisition of the stock? A. .* «- ■ • \
«ome tr«y to stop the trouble tnat mirnt en. u^ ,
The jrenUcmen connected with the large ins u "> JJ
companies did not seem to be m .t. th »t posUl on
mean financial people downtown. /companies
connection with the three big lnB l ur *" ce ,.f 01 7f V t o
except as a pollcyfiolder in « ch U js f [hat a
act. My theory about success in America is what
man i* not Judged so much by what ne >?• b " t w * ? th
he does, and this seems to me to be a tnin*, «» ,
at^dF. ta de^^
efficient, and restore It to its Pf°«P*f ' „ c | ude a i
benefit of all hone-t interests l t X" d f? o m dis- 1
that the amounts that could be "b" lnert irom »
Interested people-people who had n< ■***'* ,t, t
never to exercise the votln* P°«« '"? 15? &" any
of electing directors of the m^>,^[ ?% SX e"s j
dent of the company.
LETTER TO MR. MORTON.
The letter to Paul Morton was then read. The
main point of interest in it *as the assertion
that Mr. Ryan had not purchased his stock for
re?al- and would not resell it, save in case Mor
ton should decide it was for the interests of the
policy-holders to retire it. when he could acquire
it p.i what Mr. Ryan paid for it and 4 per cent
Interest less dividend". Pursuing his quest.ion
ing. Mr. Hughes brought out the fact that the
v.hole purchase w.is made by Mr. Ryan without
givinsr any interest to any person or institution, j
that he had not received any portion of the j
price paid back from Hyde or anyone else, and
that he had bought on his own financial respon
sibility to hold subject to his trust deed.
Mr. Ryan testified that the purchase had been ;
suggested to him, but he could not recall by {
whom, but that he had taken the matter up
only with his counsel. Elihu Root and Paul D.
Cravath. He further declared that while he had
heard rumors that other interests were trying to
purchase the stock these did not influence him
in his decision to purchase. He also affirmed
that he had betn a policyholder in the Equitable
since 1593 Pressing home for the reasons for ;
the purchase, Mr. Hughes continued:
Q.-DM you regard it as a matter of moment j
Whether the control of the stock shoulo.be houg-ht
Up »• men interested in financial enterprises who ,
mi -i it have as you expressed it a moment ago. ,
axrV to srind? A -Well. I think it might have been
considered unwise.
O - \nd why do you say it might have been con-
Bktered unwise? A.— Because I looked upon the
transaction for ill" good of the community and
for the policy-holders. ' .
(J —You were fully appreciative of the opportuni
ties that mie-ht exist if persons desiring to further
their own interests acquired a control of that
stork? A.— l can imagine that it might have been
detrimental to the institution.
q You understand. of course, that the control
of the large accumulations of which such an in
stitution as the Equitable has might be a decided
advantage In connection with financial enterprises?
A.— l can imagine that.
Q.— ln making your purchase yourself, do ] un
derstand you were not influenced by any such con
• siderations? A.— l was not.
Q —Have you since the purchase borrowed any
money from" the Equitable Life? A.- Not a dollar.
Q._Or_- bought any security from the Equitable.
t •f*. <> a >Co sir.
Q._lOr sold any security to the Equitable Life?
A —No. sir. ,
G —But is it not a fact, Mr. Ryan, that in decid
ir - to purchase the stock yourself you did have
In mind the undesirabtlity of its falling into the
h;:nds of those who would be Influenced by other
motives? a.— l think that that had an influence,
Mr. Hughes.
Q.— To put It haldlv, you would not desire those |
who might be operating in large financial trans
actions, and who might be disposed to consult ex
clusively their own interests, to have control of the
Equitable treasure house? A— Decidedly not.
Q. — When did you frfve instructions to counsel
to prepare a trust arrangement or trust deed: how
soon after you ha.l taken up the matter of acquir
ing the stock? A.— Within a few hours.
TERMS OF THE TRUST DEED.
Mr. Hughes called attention to the fact that
there was some delay in executing the trust deed, j
Mr. Ryan explained that this was due to the fact ;
that Mr. Root and Mr. Cravath were busy at the
time. He. then testified that the five year term of
the trust deed was fixed because he was advised
that this was the legal extent of such a docu- j
ment, but that in another paper he had agreed to
continue the trust as long as he lived. Whether
this agreement was obligatory upon him or not. ',
Mr. Ryan did not know. "I told Mr. Root to do j
the best he could," he explained, agreeing that he
wanted "to bind myself as far as I could under
the law." The examination continued:
q._ And you regard H as inadvisable that any
one else who was prominent in financial enterprises
should have an uncontrolled ownership of the
stock, and you did not -wish yourself to attain an
uncontrolled ownership^ of it, is that it? A.—
T at is the exact fact; better than I could state
it ir,vs«lf
q. Have voi;. sine*! the execution of this trust
deed, given any sugcestions as to the persons who
STouM V- elected us directors?. A. — I have not.
That matter has been in the sole control <>f the
trustees.
—Tin they advise with you as to the persons
Who would be satisfactory to you to en upon the
board? A— No, sir.
Cj.— Have you given any recommendations as to
the persons who should be selected. A. -No. sir.
q..' They are to select certain persons as repre
■entin* the stock Interest** A. -Yes. sir.
Q.-Is it your understanding that the trustees are
Obliged to 'elect those who are nominated by the
policy holders according to a majority vote, or th:it
th v'n ay choose among those who are nominated
by the policy holders? A.— My understanding is that
they are not obliged to do It.
Q — And why was that scheme developed: in
Other words why did you leave them free to choose
without reference to' the actual majority wishes
of the policyholders who have communicated with
tb< m" * —Well, there are a great many policy
holders.' Mr. Hughes; there are 600.<K:0 of them, and
tar Idea was that men might try to get on the:
boVird by petting up recommendations, proxies, and
you might get unfit people on the board. My idea
YOUR AILMENT is NATURE'S
REPROOF.
To overcome that ailment
You require Nature's Assistance
END'S
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NO FAMILY SHOULD EVER BE
WITHOUT IT
CAUTION.- Examine the Captule and t-t tha
it U marked KSO3 [ FRDJT SALT.' othermti
Km have the tlnceretl form of flattery
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„■»« (h«t the three truMees should look Into the
*V,_WeH it has been transferred out of .>our
patped under the trust deed? A.-That la mj on
dd Q S l a Now!*a S a matter of fact, what have you. as
stockholder done since the execution of this deed.
A.-l have done very little, Mr. Hu hPS ; mi]d
Q. Have you done anything? A— should Fay
nO Q.-"*wis.h you would explain a little more fully
bow it was that you were willing; to pay $..»».000
for stock which you would put In the hands of
trustees, with full voting power, where you shou d
exercise no control whatever, and where you t»ulrt
get at the utmost 7 per cent annually as dividends
upon the par value? A. Well. I did t to accom
plish the purposes, Mr. Hughes, told In my some
what lengthy answer.
THOUGHT IT PUBLIC SERVICE.
Q.-In other words, it was a contribution for th«»
peace and prosperity of the country? A.-I thought
I was doing a great public service
Q -We are to understand, then, that you were
actuated merely by the motive to render a public
service? A.— And to prevent what 1 considered
and what I feared would be the" most tremendous
panic that this country had ever se«n if the
Equitable Life Assurance Society had gone into
the hands of a receiver. m - tir a,
q— Have you ever reflected upon the question
whether you" can get your money 1 ack? *?-™***.
r>_Does your willingness to execute that deed
indicate that if the legislation could be had. you
would he willing to see provision made for the
election by the polio-holders according to law of a
majority of the board? A.— l am.
Q-Yo;i are willing to go on record absolute!]
IQ._Dol Q._Do the trustees receive any compensation? A.
~Q O -hls am- 'pniviMon been made for their com
n^ation'' A —Sol up to the present time. I
think"?! T three of the trustees felt that they were
performing a public duty. . , „ ,„„.„
Q -How was the J2.500.000 arrived at? Suppose
Mr. Hyde had asked for $6 500.000. There must have
"SI a^dVaily l^
•©aSTmf'KJSSa the Purchase of the
stock, were you influenced by any idea that j ou
might have an interest in the surplus of the so
ciety" A.— None whatever. .
Ci Q-Are you opposed to a plan for stock retire
ment if oiie that is legal should be devised? A -I
think the policy-holders are much safer under
stock ownership. „ . „
Q-Whv do you think that. Mr. Ryan. -Be
cause somebody is responsible for the management
'"Q^rf^is that the stock investment would
provide some security of conservative manage
ment? A.-Not bo much that, but the r«sponsibil
itv of the ownership of that stock or trust deed.a^
is is very ? at, and I think that the working
out of a plan under which the three trustees were
appointed will he of C rea; benefit to life insur
ance companies or ;o stock companies.
Q_Of course, you appreciate the fact that this
trust would terminate in five years, and in the
event of your death there would be no machinery
for its continuance? A.-l have instructed or re
quested Mr. Cravath. my counsel, to worK out a
plan by which the trust will be P"l«*uatrd. How
far he has grot in it I don't know. We have though
about It. Will you excuse me one moment, my in
tention is that I shall never exercise the noting
power of that sto?k. nor any heir of mine.
MR. RYAX'S BALK.
Refusal to Answer Questions Re
peated and Explicit.
The exciting mom-tit of tho investigating com
mittee's session, that of Mr. Ryan's refusal to
testify, followed closely upon Mr. Hughos's an
alysis of Mr. Ryan's motives and purpose in
acquiring the Hyde stock. It also tame unex
pectedly. Mr. Hughes asked, apparently with
out any suspicion of trouble, if any one had of
ft red to share the ownership of the stock after
tho purchase. Promptly Mr. Ryan protested
that he ought not to be asked to answer this,
and Paul D. Cravath. his counsel, sustained him.
Upon Mr. Hughea's insistence, he admitted Ed
ward Harriman had made such an offer tho day
after the purchase. Mr. Hughes askel why
Mr. Ryan refused the offer.
"I didn't want a partner. I did not want to
be hampered in my trustee plans, and I didn't
want any one who had been connected as a di
rector in any of the large companies," was the
explicit answer. H? added that the Harriman
proposal had come before the public announce
ment of the purchase. He further explained
that he told Mr. Harriman his plans. The next
question produced the scone. The testimony
follows:
Q.-What did Mr. Harriman say to you to influ
ence you to make the sale or to divide with him
the ownership? A .-What influence?
C.— What did he say to you to Influence you to
al.ow him to share in the purchase? A.-l don t
think Mr. Hughes, that I ought to be called upon
to answer that question— characterize or state a
conversation I had privately with Mr. Harriman.
q._-V\>ll. you can state the substance of it, Mr.
Mr.'Cravath— 1 might just say. Mr. Chairman, I
feel bound to say to my client, Mr. Ryan that,
while he should testify most fully as to what he
did and as to his own attitude and plans, he cannot
unless he chooses voluntarily to do so be required
to attempt to state here conversations wnicn Mr.
Harriman or any other man had with him In purely
unofficial conversations. Mr. Ryan is entitled to
that advice from me.
Mr Hughes— l will say that I deem the matter
Important" in two respects— in the first place, that
the committee may understand the motives which
may actuate those who desire to obtain control ot
the" stock of an insurance company, and the pro
ceedings which may be taken to acquire it. and.
secondly, that we may know whether then- is any
truth In the report that there was any suggestion
that life insurance conditions in this State would
be investigated if -Mr. Ryan did not accede to Mr.
Harriman'E request. I think that we should have
full light upon the transaction, and I hope that Mr.
Ryan will feel that he can do another public ser
vice In advising the committee fully.
The Witness think Mr. Harriman should
testify as to hi* motives.
Mr' Hughes— No. it would not bo proper of
course that voij should characterize anything thai
took place, and my question was not intended to
elicit anything more than what was said and oon<»,
and if you could not recall exactly what was said,
the substance of what took place.
The Witness— Unless I am obliged to answer, I
must be excused.
REFERRED TO COMMITTEE.
Mr Hughes-- 1 will submit the matter to the
committee: The question was. What dM he say to
you to influence you to allow him to share in the
purchase? 1 will put the question In a form that
will meet any possible objection, by asking the
witness, to state' what was said and done In con
nection with this proposition of Mr. Harriman
Mr Cravath— You are entitled to my advice. Mr.
Ryan, that you are not required as a witness to
attempt to state the substance, or attempt to re
peat any statements made.
The Chairman— Do you advise him in that wa> ,
Mr cravath ' also upon the plain question to relate
according to his best recollection what was said
and don? between him and Mr. Harriman relative
to the proposal of Mr. Harriman to acquire an in
tf rp in this stock? ,
Mr Cra'-ath-Ves. In so far as the question may
call upon the witness lo state here what was said
to him by any other person, that person being
M The H Cn r a i ir 1 man-We are asking now not for his in
ferences or his opinion, but for the fact-what was
said according to his recollection, and done.
Mr. Cravath-My view is that he is not required
a* a witness i" this inquiry to state what Mr.
Harriman or any other man sain to him in private
conversation. He will testify freely as to h!.< own
attitude his own motives and his own purposes.
The Chairman— Have you asked your question
yet, Mr. Hughes?
■Mr Hughes — Yes.
Mr Tully— Do you mean by that that the wit
ness should not be asked any question which should
call* for a conversation he might have had with any
person relative to his desire for the purchase of
the Equitable stock— as. for Instance, Mr. Hyde?
Mr. Cravath — That might he rather a broad state
ment, and there ar» certain conversations regard
ins which the witness would undoubtedly have no
objection to testifying-, but my reeling i- that
where another man had a conversation with Mr.
. Ryan regarding that stock, or any similar subject,
i Mr Rysn ought not to be called upon, and ciii
not be compelled to testify, her» or elsewhere,
where a direct Issue is not involved. Where a
direct issue as to thai conversation is not involved
as t<-> statements made by another, to attempt to
give the substance of conversations is exceedingly
I
98.
Jin
Expensive
cAnd hours of valuable
time may be saved by
a telephone talk.
It in economy to use
the telephone.
NEW YORK TELEPHONE CO.
15 Ocy Street.
NEW- YORK DAILY TETBUNE. SATURDAY. DEOEMBERJ, 1906
difficult, and to attempt to repeat the conversation
is exceedingly difficult. , "■ _ , K _ !
The Chairman— Mr. Ryan. will you answer the
question? • • , ,
The Witness- 1 will answer It so far as saying i
refused to share th« purchase with Mr. Hamman.
Mr. HuKhejs-And what did Mr. Harriman say
to you in connection with th» matter?
Mr. • Cravath— My advice is you are not required to
answer that: . ■■ ■.'.»■
The chairman— T>o you refuse to answer it .
The Witness—l refuse, .answer on counsels ad
vlcp ' * ■ ' ' ' - *
Mr. Hughes— Did Mr. Harriman say that there
would he any result Injurious to your Interests In
case you refused to admit him to a share in tne
ownership? . .
Mr. Oruvath— My advice is you are not required
to answer that.
Witness— l refuse to answer on advice of coun
sel.
The Chairman— l think the committee better dis
pose of these questions as>e proceed. Mr. Hughes.
Read the former questlon^-vrhat Mr. Harriman said
«<> him concerning the transaction?
Q. (Repeated) What did .'Mr. Harriman say to
you in connection with tfr*» 'matter?
" The Chairman— question you refuse to an
swer? . . .
The Witness— l do. . \K ■'
The Chairman— The committee directs you to
make answer to the question.
Mr. Cravath— My advice is that you are not re
quired to answer.
MAKES FLAT REFUSAL..
The Chairman-Do you still refuse to answer?
The Witness— do. .., , . _.
Tho Chairman-Read the next question. Mr. bte
"Tiquesilon read a* follow,)-Did Mr • Harriman
say that there would be any result * n t us hoh >o
your Interests in case you refused to admit him
to share In the ownership? , -i Br nil
Tho Witness— l refuse to answer that under ad
vise of my counsel.
The Chairman— The committee direets^you to an
swer that question. Do you still refuse.
The Witness— T do, under advice of counsel.
Q (by Mr. Hughes)— Did Mr. Harriman say to
you that there would be an investigation b> a
committee, of the legislature, or that steps would
be taken to have an investigation by a committee,
of the le islature. or by either House, of any in
surance company, or of insurance conditions, if >ou
did not permit him to share in the ownership.
Mr. Cravath— Same advice. Mr. Ryan.
The Witness— He did not say that.
Mr Cravath— My advice is you are not require!
to answer any of these questions.
Mr. Hughes— The question is answered, that ne
did not say. Now. did he say that any act ton on
the part of the legislature, or any official. an>
officer of the government, would be taken in the
event you would refuse to accede to his request.
Mr. Cravath— My advice la you are not required
to answer that question. _„_._
The Witness— l refuse to answer on the same
Chairman— The committee directs you to an-
The Witness— l refuse on the ground of my coun-
B( Q S fby Vl Mr Hughes)-Xow. Mr. Ryan, you will.
I think fee! entirely free to say what you sad to
Mr Harriman? A*-Well. I told Mr. Harnman
that I wanted to be free and did not want anj
partners In the transaction. -i«"-i««'i r««
Q-Did you tell him why? A.-My principal rea
son was that I wanted to make this trust deed In
my own way. .
Q._DJd you tell him that? A.— l did.
Mr. Cravath— advice la you are not required
to answer. ,
The Witness— Sam." answer, Mr. Hughes.
The Chairman— Ryan, the committee does
not want you to think that it is seeking to be offi
cious In this matter.
The Witness— l know.
The Chairman— lt realizes that you have per
formed a great public service and is only seeking
to get you to complete that service.
The Witness— l still feel. Mr. Chairman, that
I ci,,, ld not he required to answer.
The Chairman— The committee directs you to an
swer the question Just, asked with regard to what
Mr. Harriman said to you, and on that do you
The Witness— l refuse, under advice from counsel.
RELATIONS "QUITE STRAINED."
Mr Hushes— You will understand, of course, that
theobjVct of these questions is not to kn^tgt
you. and lam sure the committee—- I kno » that
I feel the delicacy of youi position In being asked
Uiat % matter of that sort should be brought out.
care what he or any one else might d dt^ ol
proposed to carry out your original plan A —l
don't remeT,-.v,er Mr. Hughes. For several days the
relations be wren Mr. Harriman and I were quite
strained, and I would not undertake, and it would
be. pretty hard for me to remember everything
B .S&u--» did you say that to hlm-that
you proposed t., carry out your original plan re
gardless "f what tic or anybody else might do In
the matter ' \-I think it is very likely I did.
O —Did you have more than one interview with
Mr Harriman 0 A.— I had a great many.
Q -Last Ing over what period? A. -Several days.
Q -That was several days between the date of
fe^sfe-Vik n^rf &
Conditions r was to pnv for it-I wa.s to pay when
cert-ii. c-.n lition« were complied with, and J think
It wa"on he n"xt day. Friday, perhaps on Satur
,lav from that time for perhaps a week Mr. Harri
m-in and 1 had various interviews. did ho wish to
acquire d what portion of the stock guess he woull
aciuTre orlsk to take? A. Well. I guesf, he woull
have taken any part of it that he could get.
Q^Dldhe want half of It? A.-T don't remem-
l "g' -Wan he willing to pay you at the same price
°g Sid he d say* Whether « not he was willing to
"B^Mr.^th: Same objection that tho ques
tion calls for your testimony as to Mr. Harnman s
Statement to which you are not required to te«-
II The 0 ' Witness— l refuse to answer that. Mr.
H The PS Chalrman -The committee directs you to
•'"^WUno^-Trefuse. on advice of counsel.
The Chairman— Mr. Hughes, may I Interrupt?
Will you kindly ask whether any one else than
Mr HFrriman sought to participate.
Mr Hughes 1 should have asked that, question.
any one save Mr. Hawiman seek to partici
patV in the ownership or purchase of the shares?
Q^— He was the only one who approached you
on that subject. A.— Yes.
O — And that is true since you first had the mat
tor' in contemplation to <-'.c present time? A.—
ff'—i'nd did Mr. Harriman approach you after
the' time when you had those several Interviews
within the few "days that you have mentioned?
A oh. our relations were re-established, and they
are pleasant.
Q — What I meant is whether he sought to a<!
<iuirr- any of the stock of the Equitable since that
time" K. -No; be became satisfied that I would
not part with that stock to him or anybody else.
RYAN BECOMES TRACTABLE.
Mr. Ryan then resumed his quiescent attitude
and answered a variety of questions. Up ad
mitted the purchase of further stock from Alex
ander to qualify directors. He explained that
he had nothing: to do with the taking up of the
"J. W. A." "yellow dog" account. The addi
tional shares were purchased at $2, ."><¥>, and the
purchase was made In order not to break into
the 502 shares already trusteed. Mr. Ryan tes
tified to his share in the control of the Wash
ington Life, which, he said, was at the in
stance of ex-Governor Levi P. Morton. In re
gard to this he testified that when the company
got into difficulties Mr. Morton decided that "at
his time of life he could not afford to have any
institution with which he had been connected
so long come to grief," and accordingly acquired
the capital stock, increased it from $125,000 to
$500,000 and restored the company to soundness.
Mr. Ryan explained that he Joined Mr. Morton
at his request. He explained that this was his
sole insurance connection md that he was not
even a director in the Equitable.
Mr. Ryan then outlined his sole recommenda
tion in the Equitable affair— that of Faul Mor
ton. The testimony on this follows:
Q. Recurring to the Equitable situation a mo
ment. I asked you whether you had made recom
mendations for vacancies in ihe boards. Have you
made recowmendation with reference to the offi
cers to b^ elected by the hoard? A.— Only in one
case, rind that in the case of Mr. Morton.
Q.— And what led you to make that recommenda
tion? A. -I Induced Mr. Morton to come to New-
York and to associate himself with me in another
enterprise, and It happened about that time that a
committee appointed by the Equitabln l-ife was
trying to settle its differences and adjust , matters.
,ii.i on» of the committee waited upon Mr. Morton
and asked him if he would aJlow his name to be
used as chairman of the board, It happened— was
a coincidence -11 happened just at that time that 1
was negotiating to buy this stock, and when I
bought the sto~k T made it a condition that Mr.
Morion should be eier;ed. because I thought he
was a proper man— chairman of the,,, board— and
that every officer i.f the company should put his
resignation into Mr. Morton's hand. When that
was done— was the condition I made— when
that was done I was to pay them the money. The
purchase was made on Thursday night at my house,
and on Friday Mr. Morton was elected, ,'md Satur
day morning I gave him a chock for the stock.
Q.— What was your object in Insisting on the res
ignations and the selection of Mr. Morton an a
condition of your purchase? A.— lt was quite evi
dent that there had to pc a cleaning out.
Q.— We may be advised of that, nut I think the
record should contain it: that is the reason I asked
the question. A.— A further condition wan that Mr.
Morton should have with those resignations a free
hand to reorganize the Equitable Society, without
Interference from anybody.
Q.— That was given to him? A.— That was given
him.
Q,— Now. hare you made any suggestions to Mr.
Morton as to the persona that should he employed
j or appointed as officers or employed by the so-
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Billings Court, Fifth Avenue at Thirty-fourth Street
cletv* A.-None whatever. He ha* talked with
% f i^U%^\°nTtuT^ mm Z t ne hju .tried to
-SliJSS^UVhilfwUol. time to the Equitable?
A.-Entirely; he has «»ered from the ent rp^
that he was to go In-he has ge h V/ n ed aD poi n ted offl
cers of the company or elected to places upon th
r? thm°k o7any. -uld
What was that committee? A.— Tnat was a
What was that committee? A.— That was a
mittee of three, I think.
BOARD ELECTED MORTON.
Q-Of the board? A.-Of th* board of *£•£«£■
of the Equitable- the old board He was ejected
he was really elected by the oU board of directors
and I doubt if more than one or two of the di
rectors knew I purchased the stock.
O— \nd who were on the sub-committee, a.
I only remember Mr. Moffatt. of Denver. Col.
And who waited upon Mr. Morton. A.— -Mr.
- Q —Had you suggested to any one prior to that
time th* availability of Mr. Morton? A.-No;
was very sorry that the question came up at tnai
q .lit was an entire surprise? It came up with
regard to Mr. Morton? , A.— Oh, yes; I never heard
° Q —Then you took It up with him and the sub
committee?' A.-No; I took it up with Mr. Morton.
I think I talked with Mr. Moffatt.
g —That was at a time when you were consid
ering the purchase of the stock? Well, it was
nerbaps two or three days before it all occurred.
Q -Then when you did consider the purchase of
the stock it had virtually been decided' that Mr.
Morton would become chairman of the board, or
that was under consideration? A.— Well, I think
that If I had not purchased the stock— l think
that I should have released— if I had become con
vinced that the majority of the board would vote
for him as chairman, I think, I should have re
leased him from his obligation to me.
Q —In the other enterprise with which he was
connected? A.— ln the other enterprise.
And as it turned out when you were willing
to buy the stock you made it a condition that they
should put Mr. Morton in charge, and have a house
cleaning. A.— That is right.
Q —That was the effect of it. It was suggested
to me that it was your purpose in buying the
stock to have a reorganization of the management.
A.— it would have hardly been worth while to
have bought the stock unless that was done.
Q.— But what f was particularly anxious to bring
out fully and completely whether you, as bene
ficial owner of the stock, through the executive
officers of the company, directly or indirectly, are
really controlling the management of the Equita
ble? A— l am not, Mr. Hughes. in any way.
Q.— Are you doing anything in regard to the man
agement of the For example, take the matter
of buying and selling securities, are you consulted
with "regard to that? A.— Absolutely not.
Q.— l have not asked you whether you sold secur
ities to the Equitable? A.— Never.
g.— And with regard to the making of collateral
loans are yon consulted in regard to that? A.—
No. sir; that Is in the hands of the finance com-
Q.— Are loans made to enterprises for the benefit
of enterprises with which you are associated? A.—
Not that I know of— in fact, I answer that no; I
know.
g.— Do you fix the salaries of those that are em
ployed—l do not mean formally, of course, you
don't do that, but I mean In effect? A.— l do not.
g —Do you have anything to do to determine
what they shall be paid? A.— No. sir.
q _So we are to understand that the manage
ment is left in the hands of the executive officers
under the responsibility of the board, and the
board is elected apart from any recommendation
of yourself by those three trustees? A.—Absolute
ly, "unreservedly.
" Were you consulted as to the salary that. Mr.
Morton wns to be paid? A. — I was not.
Q.— Do you know of how that happened to be
fixed, or 'anything about it? A.— l don't know
whether it was fixed by the finance committee or
by the whole board.
MR. RYAN' EXPI.AINS PLANS.
In the remainder of the session Mr. Hughes
and members of the committee examined Mr.
Ryan closely as to how the purposes he held
regarding lite Equitable slock could be carried
out in case of his death — that is. how the trus
tee control could be perpetuated. Assemblyman
Cox suggested that the pressure exerted by Mr.
Harriman to divide the control might be re
newed. Mr. Ryan declared that he regarded this
Incident as closed. He further explained that
he did not believe, and was not acting, under
th^ idea that he had control for the purpose of
voting his stock. He then declared that his
counsel. Mr. Cravath. was at work trying to
frame a legal form by which his will might per
petuate such trustee control, and that he be
lieved it could be accomplished without legis
lation.
"I have assumed an obligation," he insisted.
"An obligation binding on your conscience?"
queried Mr. Hughes.
"I consider it as If T had signed a note." was
the calm reply. Mr. Ryan admitted, however,
that any legislation along this line would be ap
proved by him. But he said that he did not ap
prove of legislation which would exclude the
stock from minority representation in the di
rectorate unless properly retired. Summarizing
his position, he said:
A.— Well. I assume, without having any consulta
tion with my counsel about that, I have assumed
that some plan would be worked out by which, by
giving directions in my will, that the trust would
be continued just as ft is, just as any other pro
vision of my will. In fact, what I have tried to do
is, as far as the law would allow, to divest myself
of any control of the voting power of this stock,
and I would have gone much further if the law
would have allowed it.
As he left the stand Mr. Ryan bowed def
erentially to the committee and shook hands
with Mr. Hughes and Mr. McKeen. The rest of
the days session was devoted to the probing of
the Security Mutual, of Binghamton. Next week
the Prudential Life, of New-Jersey, with Senator
Dryden as the chief witness, and several Con
necticut companies, with Senator Bulkeley as
the chief witness, will be probed.
Assistant District Attorney Nott said last
night that the Ryan incident had not yet been
called to his attention. Mr. Jerome was in Lake
ville. Over the telephone he said he had heard
nothing of the affair and would not return to
this city until Monday. It is generally believed
that there will be no action in the case until. his
return on Monday. m
Paul D. Cravath, of Guthrie. Cravath & Hen
derson, counsel to Thomas F. Ryan, made the
following statement to-night regarding Mr.
Ryan's refusal to answer the questions:
Mr Ryan's position is a simple one. and certainly
will not be misunderstood. He was advised by his
counsel that the questions which he declined to.
answer were not material or pertinent to any sub
■ iect under investigation by the committee: that he
■' wa<« therefore, under no legal compulsion to answer
them and that he ought not to place himself in the
r«.«'ti'on of voluntarily answering questions with
resseet to what was said to him by another gentle
rnnn In the course of private conversations on
matters not involved in the investigation. If it is
the view of the committee and their counsel that
he materiality and propriety of the questions pro
nnVinded to Mr. Ryan should be tested by submit
fine the matter to the District Attorney there
should be no difficulty in securing a ruling as to
whether or not Mr. Ryan is compelled to answer the
: questions.
It is generally expected that Mr. Harriman
1 will now ask for permission to testify before the
! committee. If he should not do so It is probable
| that he will be subpeenaed.
R. H. M CURDY RESIGNS.
j Mutual Trustees Again FaU o
Choose President.
That Mci'unly influence, la the affairs of the M/.
ual Life Insurance is quite at an end
was further shown yesterday, when the board of
TO CCItE A COI.D IN ONE DAT
nature Uon each ox - •■*
trustees of the company accepted the resignation
of Robert H. McCurdy. son of the former president,
Richard A. McCurdy. as general manner of the
company, to take effect December 31. Although it
was expected that at this meeting a permanent
president of the company would be selected, no
such action was taker.
The trustees met at the Mutual Life Building, at
Nassau and Cedar sts.. at 12:30 o'clock. There was
a full attendance, including Adrian Iselin. who had
been out of town since the Mutual pot began to
bol! o/er. After the meeting a typewritten state
ment was given out by Mr. Cromweli This state
ment declared that the question of choosing a
president had been put in the hands of a committee
of trustees on Wednesday. These trustees were
Messrs. Gerry. Truesdale. Clarke. Fish and Jarvie_
Yesterday this committee reported that it had
given the subject careful consideration, but. in view
of the importance of the selection, they had decided
to ask for more time. No nominations were made
«nd no names mentioned for the place.
A rssolution embodying the facts in the fore
going and these additional clauses was adopted:
Whereas A question has heen raised as to wheth
mieht after such election, have some effect In
if t should take place, will have no effect whatever
and to continue to report to this board from time
to time as heretofore.
The letter of resignation which Robert H. Mc-
Curdy sent to the board was not given out. nor
was any mention made of the reasons he gave for
leaving the company. President Cromwell was
asked if any steps had been taken to cut off the
commissions, amounting to something like $117,000 a
year, which McCurdy is receiving from the foreign
business of the company. Another reporter wanted
to know what was going to happen to the $148,000
annual commissions paid to ex-President McCurdy's
son-in-law. Thebaud. who recently resigned from
Charles H. Raymond & Co.. managers of the Mu
tual's business in the metropolitan district.
"These are still open questions," said President
Cromwell. "They have not yet been settled. By
the terms of the contract with Charles H. Raymond
& Co.. which contract expires on December 31.
something might be due on renewals and old busi
ness. These are questions to be settled hereafter.
Mr Cromwell denied the report that Robert A.
Grannis and Walter R. Gillette, vice-presidents of
the company, had resigned or intended to resign.
"There is too much hugging to Wall Street."
commented Senator Bracket, "in investing insur
ance funds. Wall Street has no use for individual
mortgages. They are too safe and stable. Wall
Street makes Its profit out of shifty securities
securities that change in value at the manipula-
is m no°d n o ? übt that the Insurance Investiga
tion Committee is not through with Mr. Ryan. It
Is said that on his return to Ihe stand the question
of the alleged sale of a burglar alarm franchise
by the Mercantile Electric Company to the New-
York Independent Telephone Company will be
gone into. The Mercantile Electric is an "/"hoot
of the Equitable and had a capitalisation of $5,000
The franchise deal is supposed to have occurred
several months after Mr. Ryan bought the Equi
table The new telephone company values tne
franchise at $12,500,000 and the Controller is now
examining Into its validity. President Morton on
Tuesday issued a typewritten statement saving
that the stock of the Mercantile Slectric was still
owned entirely by the Mercantile Trust Company.
WOULD ABOLISH REBATE PRACTICE.
Harrisburg. Perm.. Dec. B.— Attorney General Car
son virtually recommends in an offlclrvl opinion to
Insurance Commissioner Martin that the Com
missioner require all life insurance cor.ipanlesdo
ing business In this state to give a written agree
ment to abolish the practice of rebating.
A REPLY TO MR. ROOT.
Charles Raynard Gives Views of
Americans in Isle of Pines.
Havana, Dec. B.— The Associated Press to-night
received a copy of a letter of three thousand words
written by Charles Raynard. president of the
American Club, in the Isle of Pines, in reply to
the letter addressed to him by Secretary Root, In
which the latter declared the island to be entirely
subject to the Cuban government Mr. Raynard
reiterates all the arguments to the effect that the
Isle of Pines, by the ratification of the Treaty
of Paris, became United States territory and
quotes General "Wood. Adjutant General Pershing
and other officials in support of his contentions.
He says that American Investors in the property
of the island an<J American residents there always
believed that the island would be recognized as
American territory "as poon as the muddl" had
been adjusted into which General Wood had gotten
us by his failure to continue the then government
of the. island as a de facto government."
The letter also makes President McKmley and
Secretary Hay bear testimony to the ownership of
the island hy the t'nlted States, and endeavors to
show that the Platt amendment places the Island
outside the constitutional Jurisdiction of Cuba.
Mr. Raynard declares that the island will prove
a curse to Cuba in any event, as the Americans
there will not long endure the alleged injustices
and exactions of Cuban officials. He suggests as a
solution of the problem that the Cuban government
receive cash for naval station privileges. The let
ter says in conclusion:
™Otir people are being continually offered all the
munitions, money and men needed by t h * m -. ( ? ( h , ou J l d .
they care to use force. Such offers we reject, as
we have unbounded faith In receiving Justice and
equity from the legislative and Judicial departments
of our government, to which, as law-abiding and
loyal citizens, we appeal to sustain and vindicate
our actions in organizing the Territory and to
protect all participants therein and sympathizers
therewith against persecution, unjust arrest and
loss.
Do Prudent Men Take
Chances?
No one exercising ordinary
caution in business affairs
leaves his property uninsur
ed against lire, even for a
single day.
And yet at the vtjry worst
it could be only a partial
loss — fire couldn't destroy
the land.
A flaw in the title can
cause the loss of both build
ing and land.
And is as likely to happen
as a fire.
No prudent business man
dreams of assuming his own
fire risk.
Then why take the title
risk?
T!TIE GUARANTEE
AND TRUST C 9
Capital & Surplus, ■ 510,000,000
146 B o'dway. New York.
175 Remsen It eet, Brooklyn.
Mn'frs Branch, 198 Montague St., Brooklyn.
t
FOR CHRiSTMAS
The
Pianola Piano
A piano that will
give you more actu
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piano you have ever
owned.
<J Piano* c: V.I make* lakes
in exchange.
fj On contmuv deir.oestrsbon
at Aeolian Ha!!.
The Aeolian Co.,
Aeolian Hill. 362 Fife Av-..
Near Thiry-fouAi St,
New York.
EXHIBITION
OF
ORIGINAL DRAWINGS
by Famous Illustrators
DECEMBER II TH TO 230
Blake Leech
Uoughton Phil May
Brcck " Phiz"
Caldecott Rembrandt
Crulkshank Possetti
Doyle Rowlandson
Qreenaway TennJel
Keene Thackeray
Hugh Thomson
ERNEST DRESSEL NORTH,
4 East 39th St., New York.
MBS. WIWSLOW'S SOOTHING SYBUP.
has b«en U»ed tor over 81XTT TEARS by MILLION*
of MOTHERS for their CHILDREN WHILE TEETH
ING WITH PERFECT SUCCESS. IT SOOTHE? •*•
CHILD SOFTENS tho GUMS. AJLLATB all PAIX;
CURES WIND COLIC. and !■ th« best remedy f.*
PIARRHCEA. told by druczista In every pan <•! ih*
world Be aura and »■!< for
M^ST \VJN.«*IX>VS SOOTHING SYRUP.
AND TAKE NO OTHER KIND
Twenty-Five Cent" » Bottte,
HURLED TO THEIE FEET BY ENOIHS.
Vanderbilt and Mackay to Pay Hospital
Charges of Injured Woman.
[By Telegraph to The Tribune. 1
Richmond. Va.. Dec. B.— William K. Vander
bilt and Clarence H. Mackay this afternoon wit
nessed an accident on the Southern Railway
near Greensboro. N. C They were standing by
their private car on a siding when a through
freight picked up Mrs. Susan Caverners, a deaf
mute, and hurled her twenty te«t into a. ditch
at the feet of th« New-Yorkers.
Two children of the woman barely escaped.
The woman was sent to a hospital at High
Point, with instructions that the bill of ex
penses be sent to the wealthy New-Yorkers.
JOHN W. WOOTEJT DISBARRED.
Bar Association Began Proceedings Follow
ing Conviction for Looting Weisel Estate.
The Appellate Division of the Supreme Court yes
terday handed down a decision debarring John W.
Wooten from practising law. The Bar Association
instituted the proceedings against Wooten. Wooten
was Indicted with the late Armttage Matthews for
looting the Weisel estate.
The Indictment against Wooten grew oat of ti§
confession of David Rothschild, the eomrieted **■
president of the wrecked Federal Bank, who W
administrator of the estate. Wooten was convict*
of grand larceny In the first degree and gota sen
tence of nine years and five months m prison. ««
was held in the Tombs for a long time, and TO
supposed to have made confession and arrangM
to bea witness against Armitage Matthews.
MR. TAFT DRAFTS TWO BILLS.
Washington. Dec. B.— Secretary Taft has written
letters to the presiding officers of both houses of
Congress submitting drafts of two bills. one pro
viding for an Increase of fourteen officers In the
ordnance department of the army and the ether
providing for an increase In the efficiency of th»
medical department. Both of the bill? recommend
ed are substantially the sam" as bills pawed "J
the Senate at it* last session, but which failed or
action in the House.
HOLIDAY
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snvestigate and learn.
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