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TELLS OF BER ORKt
DR. SAUNDERS OUTLINES DUTIES' T
AT INSANE ASYLUM.
WORKED FOl THE BEST
Cave Up Her Entire Life and Social g
Plea.stre to Do All That She Could
to Hedp the Inmates at the Insane w
Asylum-Dr. Saunders Explains tl
What She Ilid in Her Work.
The following is the second install- t1
ment of Dr. Saunders' testimony be- I
fore the committee investigating the 'l
conditions at the State Hospital icr
Mr. Hunter: Dr. Saunders, when
did you' go to the institution?
Dr. Saunders: May 1, 1907.
Q. How long have you been there.
doctor? A. I have been there con
tinuously since, only when I was off
Q. What are your duties there.
doctor? A. I have charge of the
white women's department.
Q. White women's department?
Doctor, there was something said
here time and again with reference
to stenographers, Did you object to
the stenographer's taking Dr. Griff
A. Well now, there was one time
when I did, but that was a condition
al objection. Dr. Griffin frequently
came in and without asking the giri
to take his work kould begin dicta
ting his notes. So while I was dicta
Ing and while she was still at work
for me. he began his dictation,. and I
said: "Dr. Griffin, I am using the girl
now. My work is as important as
yours and yours must wait."I heard
nothing more of it until his testi
Q. Doctor, did you attempt to pre
vent the stenographer from writing
up Dr. Thompson's clinical record?
A. No, I did not. And I would like
to say that I began my writing up in
1909 and it took me as lone as it took
Dr. Thompson. and I had finished be
fore he began. And I thought te'
keeD up the work the regular letters
-they must be first in every case
but I have not obiected to their do
fur his work and they are doing it as
fast as they can. as far as I see.
Q. Did you feel the stress of any
friction in your work with Dr.
ThomTson? A. No. I did not.
Q. Did you have reasons to feel Ir
your work that there was a lack of
eooperation on the part of Dr
Thomsr'on? A. No. I did not
Wh-en T was away he relieved me
end when he was away I relieved
him. When T wanted anv+hing he 4
gare it to me when T wanted it.
Q. Well. d'd yovu- feel that Dr
Pehcock ever discouraed you in vorn
efforts for improvement? A. No, I
0. Tia you feel that the rerents
eve' di"? A. T'n ntil the 1?th o'
peromber 1912. T had every reason
to heli'eve that the regents approved
of my work.
Hleard No Objections.
O. You dda not un until this time?
A. TTn n11 December- the 12. 1912 %
T had heard no objections up until*
0, einee then how o you . fee' -
phont ft. doEtor? A. Well. T foel* n
that I was being weighed in the bal
C). Feve von any plan or system '5
ove' theore by which you buy ynour
manica en-u'le*? A. When T first I
want to the insti~'ntlon we did not
fr'nn the loen1 market and elsewhere.
Bnt rec'on1v we have tried to svetem- I1
st4"q the hnvfnw of' supnalles. We had
a little eunniv room. We took a room q
that was emnty and filled it un with t
shelves and tried to buy in quanity. 9
so as to ha eavinir and to buy when it C
was wanted. Everw'hody wes given '
a bov end they had the p'lvilere of t
eowing end going as they liked. I
telt that it was an adventare. No
boat ohiected; rather they helped me
Q. Uoetor, what was meant hr
amusemenlts of natients? A. Well
in everY hosnital the sire of ours
there awe entadial natlents. thote for,
whom the'e is no hope of mental re
covery. They live there. that is T
their home end their community. and
of course their days are long and
mon~otenn~us. and we attemot to do t
somethng for their amusement. We
*have ianco. movine nicture shows)
pud automobile ride for them. The
8+* dnos nt inrntsh that to them.
but It does furnish shows and dance
music, and we have various kinds of
pymniemenlts for them that we can de
Q. 'Fave you any reason to believe
that the nurses of' Dr. ThomPSonl'*
department are antarotnistic to von?
A. No. I have no reason to believe
thonrh T have never tried to take
any anthority over them. bnt T hav"'
always attemnted tn help them whei'
I enuld. When there was an enuer
gency, or anything when the nthert
were away. T was eninally as n'illine
to h-" "'in eq T wet my own "Fsot
I) WIen von tent the tray orfn
to rhe slit nre. donerr did von feel
"., 1W. re.e nha-+od io him te't
ine this food? A. No. T had never
gel:- for myr nwn on'-ene en'n T h-"'
,. h'o"+T'. tn o-tondinr it to Tir. -
ob'ected urtil when a little time lator
-'---- 1+ to me. He took it to
y ..a + A %~ T " -- .rjffn ' rohim e ,.
Pntiepen of %"-nies.
-w nae ,nuo*+on. T el-are +'ak +l.. %
*o + Mr. Bunch and he paid It will- a:
ysa, tha+ was out esl? A Vea. T 'h
did. She ha mumns and T did not he
el that it was quite fair to the pa
ents to bring her in. And she was
tting up in her room and I gave
te dictation and took the typewriter
Lit there for her to do the work.
he other girl was buying the com
ission and keeping the other office
ork going on. I went out to her
ome and gave in my work.
Q. It Is customary doctor. to buy
sings through the treasurer. A.
Tell, things we filled around town.
t least I do. I go out and buy it
ad give Mr Bunch the bill when I
et back. That was understood be
v.een Dr. Babcock. Mr. Bunch and
tyself. Now things from a distance.
-e make up a list.
Q. Is that the reason you bought
le medicine for Dr. Cooper? A
ell, It is the custom at the hospital
tat the officers buy through the
-easurer the things that they want.
r. Cooper had bought medicine
trough the Institution before, and T
as talking to him at the time. He
t1li. "Will you buy some for me? I
ill give you the money?" And I
art the money of his in thei letter
ad asked the comoany to accen'
'at as so much payment and charge
2e rest to the hospital, which was
one, and I delivered his to him and
ept the rest for the hospital use.
0. Well. did Dr. Cooner buy this
rrg through any one else at the in
itution other than yourself? A.
'Q. T feel so. I know I have gotten
oses from Mr. Aus'in. He always
aid for it through Mr. Bunch.
Work With Other Doctors.
Q. Have you had any association
'ith any other doctors not employed
y the asylum? A. Oh. yes. I have.
Q. Will you tell some occasions.
ctor? A. Well. the first man I ever
'orked with outside of the hospital
mploy was Dr. Stiles of Washing
in. He was going through the South
S19(9 studying hookworm. Ha
.me to the hospital. and of course I
-na clad to set anything new T coul'
-d T asked him to go through my
-ards and show me the ones that
,d it. and he showed me how to
--at all of the cases that had hook
Then the newt man T had any wn''
-ith ortside of the emntcv was Dr
'nward Fox of New Yorkc city. He
,me down to study the pellagra
aces and he did the first Wassermin
-et. poecib'r the first In South Car
"=na. We did ?o of my cases. T
"lred him in 1909.
And then T worked with Dr. T av"n
- -. ^- T enp of the marine hoc
ital service. and Dr. Donugas Sir
-r of Chicago came down and look
- after my cases. He is the man
at has charge of the Pqvchonathir
--ital. And then Dr. White a yea
T have had very pleasant associa
'n wth a E-eot mYtav mea'..i n.
rit only awav from South Carolina.
Vit T ha 'e nilpeant aesoe'atine with,
ny doctor who h-ings a natient to
e. T eneourase him to keen nn hia
"t-ret. and T keen un t'is treatwtent
he wants it done. The dnetors in
,n come to me. and if T have a
-onblesome case T 'et a doctor if T
-ant. Dr. Watson has been in my
,vnortment. Dr. Williams. and Dr.
'alor' has been in a great deal, and
Q. Aencatinr with those doctors
nid wn-kng with them outside of
he asylum. doctor. was that with a
few of bettering your
A. Oh. yes. I always ask them
rhen I heard that they were coming
> Dr. Ba1 ick's I asked them to
ome to nay ward and give some
'ticlsm. T nsked them. They dird '+.
ifer. T wanted them and I didn't
iid asking for it.
Q. Did you feel that you were
enefited for having inquired into It?
.Why, yes. T got somebody else's
leas besides my own.
Q. Did those ideas help you in
okIng after the inmates of the in
titution? A. Why. I hav3 felt that
helped me materially.
Q. What particular time did you
nalyze for the Wasserman test. doc
'r? A. Well. I did not have a labor
tory to work. We fitted up with
nything we could get. and I am
fraid I offended Dr. Rlackburn by
king some of his things. I bought
ame things. I took some thinks
-o the laboratory and I took
tings from elsewhere, for I have no
ther practice and we gathered up
erything that we could. The nurses
elped me in that. We had no water
ath or thermometer. So these
urses had to stand there and hold
ie thermometer in the water bath.
nd I was never wIthout their help.
ecause T could not have done what
did without their help, and in addi
on to that. Dr. Cocmer halned me
Q. You felt that the things were
'ere for the us- A. Why, yes.
did. And anything I had in my de
artment. If anybody wanted It. I
ave it and if I got it back I was so
rtunate; If I didn't, I got some
Nursing Service Improved.
Q. Did you feel that the registra
on of the nurses improved the ser
ice? A. Why, It helped wonderful
.We got a better class of nurses
ad they were more happy to come,
eling that they were In the class
ith other nurses. Of course that
nproved our service and they got
tore training and there was an ad
ntage all around.
Q. Did you siut forth any special
fort to bring this about? A. I did
rerything that I could. I was even
rused of camping out down at the
Q. And since then you find that It
3.s been an advantage to the insti
ition? A. Why. I do.
Q. Doctor, did you remove the
'ngs which Dr. Blackburn says you
'moved from his laboratory? A.
es. I moved some things. I do not
ow that T got everything that he
issed, hut I did remove some things.
Q. Did vou return them? A. Yes,
did. when Dr. Pabcock told me that
r. Blackbu~rn was then readiy to
ork and he ordered me to return
em anid T returned on the same day
e test tubes and racks, two grad
ted pip)ettes. one bulb. two wire
schets, one water bath and ther
ometer and other little things.
assware and other things, that I
'tew that he would want. And in
Idition to that. Dr. Babcock told me
at Dr. Blackburn wan ted somej
ings. and I was as willing to help
7. Blackburn and he was to help me
d Dr. Rabeock gave me the re-iui
Ion that Dr. -Blackburn wanted
d I sent over two hens, a meat,
opper, two guInea pigs. one beef
r, and rubber tnbing and +tssue
paper. I was very glad to help out,
so I sent over the things to him and
I returned the things that I had.
Of course I had to get up some
thing else, which I did, because I did
not discontinue, because I did not
know that there was any objection to
my doing it. I thought there was
objection on the part that I had tak
en the things.
Q. You were doing all of this for
what object, doctor? A. Because last
year I went to New York city and I
saw the work that they were doing in
mental medicine and according to the
present day work done-considering
the present day work as a basis. I
found out that they were considering
three main causes of insanity, hered
ity, alcohol and syphillis. Of course
I could not do s -thing-we have no
outside field . .. or welfare work
after our patient leave the hospital;
I could do but little there, and alco
hol plays such a small part in my de
partment, because I have had only
three cases in seven years and I de
termined to find out what per cent
of my cases were syphiletics. I did
it for various reasons. Because I had
some epileptics that developed in
adult life. I wanted to do some work
in a certain form of mental trouble
to see what percentage they showed
of syphillis and I determined to do
the work. I asked Dr. Babcock. He
said he had no objection if I wanted
to do It.
Got Up at 5 a. m.
Q. How did you manage to run
your department- A. Oh, I got
up early and I began work about 5
o'clock and I would work until time
to go around and I would work a
night. I did that over time. I did
not fall to keep up my own work and
the girls, the office girls were good
I took care of the girls. And the
nurses came to the rescue and did a
lot of work that they would not have
otherwise done. They all helped me
keep it up.
Q. How much of the "606" did
vou use in your department? A
Well, of the patients that I tested I
had only 43 positive. Ten of then:
was willing to try the "606" on. The
thers had organic brain lesions an'
I was afraid to try it. So I did no.
rive it to but about a dozen of ni'
'Mr. Stevenson: Are there cases o!
-hat where it is not judicious to us'
'he "606"? A. Yes. sir: Mr. Steven
:on. I was afraid to use It in organic
'rain lesions. There is a certain re
iction that is likely to occur in an'
of those cases that I wanted to avoid
Q. How do you determine tha
-hey have the organic brain lesions
\. Your physical examination befor'
hat has told me.
Q. Without the physical examin;'
-inn you are likely to give the "(As'
and have a disaster? A. I was care
'ul. because I did not want any a"
eidents to happen. and I rather crred
on the other side and gave the treat
ment of life the first consideration.
Q. Would it be Judicious. in von
pinion. to enter upon one of th'
reatmerts of those cases with "60'
ithout a physical examination t,
letermine whether there were lesion
or not? A. I would not do it.
Tonk Spec'ial Course.
Mr. Hunter: Doctor, here is a
tatemsent with reference to an ex
ense that occurred there In the hos
ital. Will you please tell what I
has reference to? A. Why, yes. it
1910. The Asylum World. I migh'
<ay, began to take notice of the fac
hat mecharnical treatment-so-call e
mechanotherapy-was useful In the
-ure of the insane, and the methods
sually applied to the State hospita'
work were those of electrie massar
anud hydrotherapy. I wanted to learn
!ow to do is so I could apply it to my
lepartment. So I asked Dr. Babeoci
if I might go away. using my vaca
tion to study. He said yes, so I went
to the Orthopedic institute of Phila
lelphia to study. And I have a cer
tifiate now that I got, if you care to
see it. showing that I applied my
time andI I w-as given a certificate for
this course, and!I came back and Dr.
abcock very kindly said he would
ask the regents to pay for it. And of
course it was an advantare to me and
Iaccepted it. Since then I have been
doing this work regularly.
Q. You got permission from the
superintendent to take this course?
A. Yes: he rather suggested it to me.
Q. And your return- A. He
asked me to present an itemized bill.
which I did.
Q. Did the board of regents au
thorize this paid? A. I do not know.
Dr. Babcock said he would take care
of it. Dr. Babcock got the itemized
list from me. I do not know who
paid it. 1 have tried to apply the
work to the hospital since.
Q. You were looking forward to
the necessity of the hospital? A. Yes,
I wanted to apply it to my patients.
Q. You feel that this course has
been helpful to you, doctor? A. Yes.
but it has been very much more help
ful to the patients, because they have
received the benefit of it.
As to Meals.
Q. Doctor, did you ever give
meals to any one else besides Dr.
Cooper? A. Yes. I felt that I was
rather at home. No employee of the
hospital came there that I did not'
invite them to dinner, and I have
been very generous about the meals.
When any relative of a patient comes
Snever send them out for meals, be
cause it might be the only time in
the year when they can be there with
their relatives, and I encourage them
to stay and I always give them meals.
Any patients returning I always give
them meals. If I do not take them
to the table with me I send them a
Q. Doctor, why did you object to1
Dr. Toole and Dr. Killingsworth us-1
ng the same books? A. The same t
Q. Yes, ma'am. A. Dr. Killings
worth, after his failure for re-elec
Aon, if I might put it that way, ont
he 1st of July, wanted to make up 1
ris re- ort, so he telephoned me for 1
:he dental list or the dental account I
r the record that we kept for thei
entists and I sent it out to him. Het
ad used the record and it was reallyT
is, though it was hospital property.t
And, thinking there would be no cb
ection, I sent it out to him. In the
nantime Dr. Toole came on duty,.
tnd as the book wasn't there I hard
d him a sheet of paper and told him
e could .iot them down on that that
norninr and I would transfer it.c
nd I felt that Dr. Toole might thinkt
hat I n-a not as generous to him asa
o Dr. Killinrsworth, so I got him a, a
tew book. His record is at the hos- t
:an Dr. Killingsworth's.
Q. Doctor, about these appoint
nents. Did you object to any of
hose appointments in July? A. No;
t wasn't my duty to employ them;
had nothing to do with it; I said
iothing about it.
Q. You offered no objection? A.
As to Interference.
Q. Well, doctor, there has a lot
been said with reference to trespass
ing, interfering with other doctors'
wards. What have you to say with
reference to those statements? You
have heard them brought out? A.
Yes. Well, frequently I did every
thing. I did everything that I could
for the hospital possible, and I cer
tainly did it with a generous, altruis
tic spirit. I had no desire to trespass
upon anybody's department, and I
had no desire to monopolize. The
apportunity arose where I could help
and I helped, but I was as willing to
all on others as I was willing to be
:alled on; and they didn't object at
that time and I felt that they either
consented, or their silence gave con
Q. When did you hear the. first of
it? A. I did not hear anything of it
until the 11th of December.
Q. Well, can you account for their
objection at the time that they did?
A. No, I do not know why.
Q. Doctor, I wish you would just
go ahead and tell us what you did
there, in the dining room and in your
own ward and everywhere; just tell
us as hastily as you can all that you
really did do. A. Well, as I say,
when I went to the hospital I came
in with the full understanding that
I was to give all of my time and that
I was given charge of the white wo
nen's department to be sure and I
Felt that I was given the privilege or
he liberty of developing it as I liked,
ind, as I said before, I did it from a
spirit of generosity. I had no desire
to encroach on the departments of
others or monopolize at all. And
luring my seven years' service my
>ne thought was for my patients and
he others as I could. I had charge
>f the white women. Naturally I
'id more for them than the others,
but I helped where I could. I saw
:o reason why I should not help
-hem when I could, especially when
ao one objected.
For Bigger Things.
The patients were well cared for
end happy and the nurses were hap
py and contented and I had assur
nces that my work was approved of
by some good men and women any
way. and they came around and saw
the work I was doing and they rath
r encouraged me, an I had no rea
son to believe it was disagreeable to
Now, of course, so much has been
aid about the disagreement and the
petty personalities and such things,
mnd I would like to say that on my
-art there has been something else in
addition to this. We may have had
>ur disagreements-I do not deny
-hat-hut along with that there cer
'ainly has been a desire to reach out
'or bigger things and improve the
-onditions among the insane.
As I told you, I came to the hos
nital in 190'7 and I was willing to
ive generously of time and effort.
t never occurred to me that I would
~et more pay for it. which I did not.
Idid not consider the money. And
'ough my time at the hospital has
not rippled along like a summer
rook, it has not been unhappy.
No Outside Interests.
Q. Have you had the institution at
'eart at all times, doctor? A. Well,
I felt I had. I have nothing else.
have no outside practice. I have no
~ocial life or anything like that. I
~pend my whole time in the institu
ion except occasionally. I have rec
reation in the form of music.
Q. I believe you said the superin
tendent, Dr. Babcock, had encourag
ed- A. Oh, yes. I never had any
objection on the part of Dr. Bab
Q. Did you have any objections
coming to you from any of the oth
er-? A. No; not until the 12th ol
December did I hear it.
Q. Was any complaint made to
you, doctor, from the board of re
rents in reference to your work ovei
there? A. No, I have never receiv
ed, up until the 12th of December.
any criticism or any instructions or
arders for work there from any of
the board of regents, from them or
from any of the members. They nev
er told me to do or not to do things.
Df course I was always good as I
ould be in taking them around when
then wanted to go in my department.
buut otherwise I had nothing to do
wvith the board of regents. They went
my department and they went in
the others, and they asked me to go
tnd I always went when I was re
iuested. Dr. Babcock frequently
:enducted them through my depart
Q. Will you tell us about the regu
ations you have with reference to
four own department, record of
~ases? A. Record of cases?
Q. Yes, ma'am, you keep a rec
yrd? A. Yes, I keep records.
Case Histories D~escribed.
Q. Give us an idea of those rec
)rds please. Have you any of those
mecords with you? A. Yes, I have
several. And this particularly 1
vant them to see (producing record,
md I want them particularly to see
.his one, please, (produces another
'ecord). Now. every doctor has his
r her own idea of examination of
aticnts. In my own department I
vatched up all I could and I had
ormed my own ideas.
Q. Doctor, will you just take one
nd review it for us, please; just for
he benefit of those that haven't
hem' A. Well, in every case, when
he patient comes into the hospital.
he nurse immediately receives her.
always see her if possible. I en
'ourage some member of the family
o come along and to give what his
ory they will. Now by history I
nean family hi':tory and the personal
istory. And I go over all of the ina
ormation I can. It is frequently hard
o do. because the family of the peo
le often are not--they do not know,
hey do not know the application that
certain symptom would mean. what
mportance to attach to it. Anyway.
tis equally hard to get information.
ut we keep on and get what we can
rm the family.
If the patient is admitted by a
ounty officer. I send a list of ques
ons back to him and the family and
sk them to answer them. If there
re any interesting symptoms. I write
o the doctor and ask him to give me
is hitory and what he did. Alfter
I have gotten that we return to the
patient. The nurse immediately
makes out a card. That card includes
a lot of information for the hospital's
benefit. We put down certain facts
or data, the ward, the physician, who
admitted her, the height, the weight,
the color of the eye, pulse, morning
and afternoon respiration and tem
perature. Then we put down wheth
er or not she has vermin, because
that is a great source of trouble to
us, because we do not like to cut
their hair. It is troublesome, be
cause so many do come with vermin.
Then we examine for bruises and
marks and scars and so on, because
we are frequently accused of mis
treating patients and that kind of
thing by people who do not know,
and we take a record to show in ex
actly what condition they come,
showing that they do come to us
bruised, because in their low vitality,
which they usually are, in their rest
lessness, they frequently bruise them
selves and their ecorts to help them
selves cause skin bruises. We put
down list of valuables, if there is
anything particularly valuable ac
companying the patient. We take
the money and valuables. Then the
nurse sends a specimen of urine to
the laboratory. Then after that I
make the physical examination fol
lowing a list of details that I have,
and it is quite an interrogative form
of history taken. Anyway it is a
book of questions that we write out
that we have, and I do any interroga
tive form of history from that. I
simply get these questions and write
it out according to my own ideas. I
try to state facts without attaching
any man's opinion, because in medico
legal cases a lawyer is always dis
agreeable because I haven't put down
the facts that he wants and another
comes along and wants his view of
the fact and I put down everything as
I see it.
The physical and neurological ex
aminations are made at a single sit
'ing, or with a single examination.
The mental examinations extend over
a longer period of time. There are
some- cases that we can diagnose
with a single examination.- There
Ire others that take time. We have
those diseases that are. rather diffi
cult of classification, that we mark
as inconclusive and watch for a per
od of months before we are satisfied
but frequently we come to a conclu
sion much more quickly. In other
eases of lowest inaction, or frequent
ly for my own satisfaction, I have a
blood examination made, filling out
1 blood chart that I had made up my
We always, as I say, have the nur
es secure the urinary examination.
frequently the blood examination.
then every patient - sees the dentist
,s soon as she come in. If she is
admitted today she goes to the den
tist the next day. I usually keep a
list ahead. Now, that is all systemat
-c work that is gone through'with ev
Every case at the time of her ad
-nisslon is vaccinated against small
pox, no matter whether she has been
-accinated previously or not. Every
case young enough, and usually not
over 40, is vaccinated against typhoid
fever. I do whatever examination ic
necessary, watching them from time.
o time, and every case I jot down
ittle notes on the case, certainly I
put down every change for better or
for worse, and every accident is noted
and how it came about. This I write
home to the family. I economize as
-uch as I can, and when I write out
these things I have the office girl to
write out a statement of her own
composition. She states the facts to
Every case as soon as it is admit
ted is given special care, because it Is
a terrible break from their home to
the hospital and it is the tendency of
a great hosnital is to lose sight of the
~ndividual: and the tendency is to in
dividualize as much a spossible and
make them feel welcome, because a
great many of them feel that they
are not. And we write the family the
next day, hecause that it the first
'reak from home and they are iso
lated, with a certain amount of sad
ness, and we always write them a'
home how they are getting along and
we write them frequently until they
get accustomed to it. The patient is
frequently more happy than the fam
ly. We try to allay their anxiety
by writing as often as possible, and
I give them my address on a little
card and tell them what they may ex
pect, the treatment that they will
get, the ward on which they are plac
ed. I encourage them all to let me
know of any suggestion that they
wish carried out and I will do it if
T can, and if I can not 1 tell them
Q. Well, doctor, the members of
the family at times come to visit the
patiets? A. Oh. yes. I encourage
them to come as much as they like,
because they frequently
Q. You admit them to see the- A.
Oh, yes, whenever they come.
Q. You have rules of your own,
doctor, with referer.ce to admitting
anyone on certain days or at certain
times? A. Well, it Is the custom of
the institution to have visitors every
day except Sunday, from 9:30 to 12
In the morning, and from 2:30 to 4
in summer and to 5 winter.
Relatives Vish I :'tients.
Q. In fact you wc.?. . mit any
one that was a patient--any member
of their family any day that they go
there? A. Oh, yes.
Q. Do you recall refusing any one
at any time, doctor? A. No, I do
not. I do not recall anybody now. If
I did it was for some special reason.
Now, I reserve the right to ask them
to stay away if I find the patient is
not improving or comfortable. You
have a good many patients that have
ideas against their own family: and
certainly it is right to keep them
comfortable whether the family is
comfortable or not. They are the
first consideration. But certain near
relationships are always admitted. I
always extend courtesy to the county
officer, too, if he is interested.
Q. Did you ever at any time have
n'- one anpeal to the superintendent
and insist on your letting him see
them? A. Oh. yes. I always tell them
t-hen they are not satisfied with that
decision to go to him. Whenever
they are dissatified with anything. I
say that is not final.
Q. That is merely in carrying out
onr rule with rerard to the welfare
of the unfortunates?
A. Oh, I always refer things that1
they don't like to Dr. Babcock. If
-. can get aloeg, all right; buht if not,
TALKS IT VISOR
TILLMAN SAYS POLITICAL KILL.
IN GOUGHT TO FOLLOW.
ATTACK ON I. SAUNDERS
Senior Senator In a Spirited Inter
view at Greenwood Says Envy and
Jealousy Are at the Bottom of the
Asylum Trouble.-Takes a Rap at
"There certainly ought to be some
"I don't suppose anybody doubts
now who Blease's slavish underlings
and satellites are."
"Jealousy and envy caused all of
this devilment-this monstrosity, in
the affairs of our state asylum."
"I have been impressed with the
fact that Blease threatened to put
Dr. Babcock where he could not
speak if the Governor's sister's name
was brought into the inquiry, while
Dr. Saunders' brother had no one t
protect his sister."
Thus spoke Senator Benjamin R.
Tillman In an interesting talk Satur
day morning at Greenwood on the
investigation that has been in prog
ress for the past two weeks into the
affairs of the State Hospital for the
Insane. Senator and Mrs. Tillman
arrived there Friday afternoon from
Atlanta, whare Mrs. Tillman rested
for two weeks at Robertson's Sani
tarium, and spent the day with their
son, Mr. Henry C. Tillman. They
leave for their home at Trenton, for
the purpose, as the Senator expressed
it, "of planting our garden, if it ever
The first remark quoted above was
in answer to a question from a Jour
nal representative, who wanted to
know if the attack on Dr. Saunders
would be used as political capital by
anyone in the campaign this summer.
Quick as a flash, Senator Tillman
replied: "There certainly ought to be
some political killing. If there isn't
it will be a sad day for South Caro
lina and her love for chivalry and
sense of honor."
The conversation, in which Mr.
Tillman took an interesting and in
terested part, had drifted very natur
ally from the vote favorable to Clem
son College, which had been saved
from "a muss" to "the mess at the
State Hospital for the Insane."
Senator Tillman, with a character
istic gesture, dived into the subject
with the remark: "Now, ain't that
a nice kittle of fish. I don't suppose
anyone doubts now who Blease's slav
ish underlings aird satellites are.'
and he laughed heartily when he
"They at least know one of them.
Senator," ventured the newspaper re
porter. "That State Senator, you
"No, they don't even know who he
is yet." replied Mr. Tillman. "Bleaso
lied about that letter, but that does
not seem to be a very hard thing for
him to do. (And he laughed again.)
"He claimed that the letter was not
given to' him by a State Senator."
The newspaper man ventured to
use the word "mess" again, and to
this Senator Tillman replied with
some of his old time fire: "Jealousy
and envy caused all of this devilment
-this monstrosity. Those doctort
realized that Dr. Saunders knew more
than they did, and they .wanted to
get rid of her. It is a disgrace."
Turning to a discussion of the Gov
ernor again, Senator Tillman made
the remark quoted on Blease's threat
to Dr. Babcock. Newspaper readters
are familiar with the stories which
appeared when Dr. Babcock, on the
witness stand, said that the intima
tion or insinuation against Dr. Saun
ders' moral character had been made
in the hearing of the Governor's sis
"T have been- impressed with the
act." said the Senator, "that Blease
threatened to put Dr. Babcock where
he could not speak if the Governor's
sister's name was brought into the
inquiry, while Dr. Saunders' brother
had no one to protect his sister." It
is understood that Dr. Saunders'
brother has been for years in a weak
mental and physical condition.
Senator Tillman talked pleasantly
he was in excellent humor) of his
two weeks' visit to Atlanta. but had
little more to say of a political sig
nificance than his opinions in the asy
lum matter. He was reminded of the
fact that Senator John L. McLaurin
was In Atlanta during the Senator's
sojourn there, but made nn comment.
I refer them to Dr. Babcock.
Q. Such as that does occur occa
sionally? A. Oh, yes, occasionally;
but it does not often happen. The
people are usually reasonable.
Q. Doctor, your patients as best
they can, seem to appreciate your
work for them? A. Oh. yes. I feel
that they are very happy and get
along very comfortably..
Q. They impress you that they ap
preciate what you are doing for
them? A. Oh, yes, I think so.
Q. Well, speaking of admitting
those patients--when you first take
them in-there is somewhat of a dis
advantage to the doctors who do not
not reside on tne premises along this
line, is it not? A. I do not know
about that. I a a always on duty. I
always receive mine. When I do not.
Dr. Babcock or Dr. Thompson always
receives them for me and take down
history for me.
Q. Then who takes down history
for those who reside in the city and
are not -there when the patient is
brought in? A. I do not know. I do
not un'less it is something special that
they want me to take down and then
Q. Then you do? A. I take down
any reports or telegrams or anything
and make a little note of it and send
it to the department.
Q. Whose duty is that, doctor, on
each department when a patient is
brought in? Is that physician's duty
to receive the patient? A. To re
eeive the patient? I feel that it is
my duty to receive mine.
Q. Whose duty is it to receive the
nnients on the male department? A.
Well, those there when they are
here. When they are not, we do it.
Q. Dr. Thompson? A. He Is al-'
ways on duty. We are on constantj
of al the bem
puriy. Et na
insures you ag
all forms of at
go with the log
BEGIN TO INVESTIGATE
UNITED STATES SEEKING TRUTH
OF BENTON'S MURDER.
Government Asks Villa for Body so
Physicians Can Examine Wounds
to Verify Villa's Story.
With a request by Secretary Bryan
to Gen. Francisco Villa that the body
of William S. Benton, British subject,
be exhumed and turned over to
American officials for examination,
the Washington government consid
ered that the first step had been tak
en in its investigations of the recent
execution at Juarez which has focus-,
ed the eyes of the world anew on the
Just what Gen. Villa purposes to
do about the, request for the body ap
parently was an open question late
Tuesday. Early in evening Secretary
Bryan had accepted a message from,
the constitutional chief to Consular
Agent Caruthers at Juarez as a prom
Ise that the body would be turned
over to American authorities as soonI
as the matter could be arranged.
This message was translated to read.
that the body would be delivered
"but not at this time".
Just before midnight state depart-f
ment officials made public this an
nouncement: "American consul at
Chihuahua reports that Villa declines
to deliver Benton's body but will per-;
mit the widow or relatves to vsit the
place with American representative,
that for their benefit he will order ex
humation of the body which then will'
be reinterred in grave from which it
Gen. Villa Is at Chihuahua and it is
supposed Consul Letcher has been in
personal communication with him.
From the character of the wounds
discovered on Benton's body, physi
clans will be able to say whether
Benton was killed by a pistol shot. as
his friends claim. or'by a firing squad
as Villa asserts. It is generally ad
mitted in official circles that an ex
amnation will be of great value in
either affirmation or disposing of, an
important point in Villa's general ex
Developments were many in the
situation that has arisen out of the
killing of Benton. Secretary Bryan
asked American consular representa-1
tives of Nogales to confer with Gen.
Carranza about the affair. The sec
retary talked with Acting Chairman
Shively of the Senate foreign rela-I
tions committee and then at lengtht
with President Wilson. The incident'
was fully discussed at a cabinet meet
ng. Sir Cecil Spring-Rice, British
ami.bassador, later called on Secre
tary Bryan and arranged for the visit
of British Consul Percival to El Paso
to supplement the American inquiry,
though not to interfere with it. The
secretary then conferred again with
News of the hanging of Clemento
Vergara, an American citizen, by
Mexican federals near Nuevo Laredo,1
Mexico, directed attention to the
Ruf erta government on the subject of
protection for foreigners. Repre-j
sentations on behalf of Vergara had'
been made by the state department
some time ago.
Snow Causes Wreck.
Five persons were injured when
the Wabash railroad's Continental
imited ran Into three road engines
~t Decatur,I 11.. Monday. 'The engi
neer of the passenger train was blind-1
ed by the snow.
Death Follows Broken "Date".
Jennie Gallo, 14 years old, swal
lowed poison and died In a Bowery
moving picture theater in New York
city because her boy sweetheart fail
ed to keep a "date".
Arbitration Treaties Renewed.
The Senate Saturday renewed forj
five years general agreements withi
Great Britain, Japan, Italy, Norway,
Sweden, Portugal, Spain and Switzer-I
Kills His Wife.
A victim of acute mania. Simon G. 1
Cooney Saturday killed his wife in aj4
Dansville, N. Y., santarium, and cool
'v announced the fact to the clerk
'cept to say that a number of South
Carolinians went over to the regional
bank hearing, but none cf them visit- 1
ed him. perhaps thinking that he did
not want to be disturbed at the san- ~
A statement about the national po
itical situation was expected when
the reorted asked what Senator Till.
man though would he the outcome of
President Wilson's fight for free tolls
hut the Senator replied by sayingT
that he had been away from Wash
inton for three weeks and was not
in close touch with natio'nal affairs.
Senator Tillman shows no evidence
whatever of his recent illness. "1
weigh 178 pounds" he said. "and
gained three pounds while we were T
in Atlanta. That is pretty good when d
yo consider t Igt down to 158." "
mg powders In
ebaed for its
g slength and
ces your cakes,
ainst alum and
SIDELIGHTS ON ASYLUM
STEVENSON ROASTS BIEMS AT
Assistant Physician Fulmer Takes
Exception to Dr. - Tayloi's State
ment but Latter Holds His Ground.
We give below two interesting el
tracts from the stenographic report
of last Tuesday's hearing of the asy
lum investigation: Mr. J. D. Buvens
one of the regents was on the stand
Tuesday. Following is a part of his
Mr. Bivens: Mr. Chairman, I
want to make a statement before that
sir. That the puestions-that I will.
only answer any puestion that is per
tinent or germane to the main puess
tion. There are some questions that.
they may ask that I am not going to
answer positively. I want to be
plain and I want you all to under
stand me. I think' this-I think it .
kould have been the proper thing for
Dr. Saunders to have her lawyer in
here. She is a lady and she may
bring out questions and the reply
may be harsher than it oughtrto be.
So for that reason I think she ought
to have her lawyer.
Mr. Stevenson: Mr. Chairman. I
think the committee will be in a .bet
ter position to do the determining as
to what is relevant and it is not the
business of the witness to do that.
Courts usualy determine that-what
is relevant and pertinent.
Latey in the hearing:
Mr. Stevenson: The witness stat.
ed that he thought Dr. Saunders
ought to have her lawyer here?
Mr. Bivens: How is that, sir?
Mr.- Stevenson: Did I understand
you to say that you thought Dr.
Saunders ought to have a -lawyer
here to represent her?
Mr. Bivens: I understand that
Dr. Saunders had a lawyer.
Mr. Stevenson: Do you think she
needs it any worse than she did at
that executive session?
Mr. Bivens: No. sir. I do not sup
Mr. Stevenson: Why did the board
exclude him then, if she needs it
Mr. Bivens: My reason -for that Is
this, that Dr. Saunders Is a lady and
if they are going through a quiz It Is
preferable coming through'a lawyer,
because the reply may be a little
harsh and I would not
Mr. Stevenson: But when she is
on trial you think it Is better not to
have a lawyer-and then you are the
Mr. Bivens: I think it would be
a good plan to have a lawyer along
At the afternoon session last Tues
day Dr. Fulmer, Assistant physician
at the State Hospital for the Insane
and Dr. Julius H. Taylor. a regent of
the nstitution had an interesting ex
change of words. Followhiig is the
stenographic report of a part of their
Dr. Fulmer: I want to know If
Dr. Taylor knows about my medical
Dr. Taylor: No sir.
Q. Have I ever been called into a
:ase with you? A. No. air,
Q. Why do you state that IDr. Saun
dlers is head and shoulders above
very other doctor In the institution?
A. Because I believe her to be.
Q. Why? I know the work she
has done, doctor and I know some
hing of your work.
Q. Have you ever been in the col
yred female departuent to see what
records I have? A. I said so far as
[know you have no records.
Q. Have you been over there to
;ee? A. No. sir, I h'aven't seen your
Q. As far as operating, have you
ever done any operating tor the
hite female department? A. Yes.
Q. For the colored male? A. I do
iot recall for the coloread male.'
Q. White male? A. Yes.
Q. Have you gone in the colored
lepartment since I have been there?
a. No. sir.
Q. There have been oycrations go
ng on for different things. I have
lone them myself. As to results, I
an show you. That Is just about
he point I wanted to bring out-why
*ou made the statement that she is
'head and shoulders above-" A.
rhat is my opinion.
Q. That statement was also made
>y Col. All- .
Dr. Fulmer then asked Dr. Taylor
rhat he based his opinion on.
To which Dr. Taylor replied:
Well, doctor. I have seen and heard
'ou in the Columbia Medical society
nd T have come in contact with you
or the last few years and I have
een Dr. Saunders and her work, and
repeat my statement that she Is
ead and soulders above any member
f the staff.''
Two~ Negroes Killed.
Quiet was renorted Monday at
tobinsonville, Miss., where on Sun
y a .;hite tr in and two negroes