New-York tribune. [volume], April 22, 1915, Page 2, Image 2

About New-York tribune. [volume] (New York [N.Y.]) 1866-1924

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Legislators
aent a picture. Colonel Roosevelt told
of Senator Tlatt's first assumption of
the reins not long before Roosevelt
took office a? Governor.
"Mr. Platt," said he. his eyes spark?
ing*, "congratulated me upon having
early teeurrd so capable a man as Su
perintende it of Public Works, and he
handed, ns he spoke, a telegram of ac?
ceptance from Francis Hendricks. But
for this pchtical appointment I had in
mind a man whose home was not in any
one of tho canal counties, and" the
Colonel's voice became a mixture of
grim emphasis and triumphant chuckle
" that I did not intend to have
? any one d otate my appoint?
ment."*
Harne? Letters Quoted.
In tuppcrt of the Colonel's implied
assertion ihat the Platt mantle fitted
the Harnes shoulders, counsel for Colo- '
nel RoOSOVelt introduced letters from
Barnes dealing w,th direct primary leg?
islation ard with the proposed estab
lishn ? .ie printing house. The
Republican Uader seemed to htve scant
? the <'i<' would ruin him P"
ttet financially, if
the : can i?'d out
"M . mocrats," a term that
Roosevi : got into the record
e Mr Ivins's j roust, carr.e to the I
h - ? Republicans,"
tne i olonel declared, in ele.ting Sena-1
. of the state
I
at he adde I that the Republicana wer.'
thus ssi ited by theii nominal foes in]
. . eader.
at was don?' by tht machine Dem- I
ocrats in the case of Alldi was recipro- i
eated I machine Republicans in;
the ? m of Senator Stilwell," the |
1 nel Roosevelt's testimony was ]
subjected to objection by Mr. Iving at
sit.on. Very little of
: out, I owever. Objections
by course! did not seem to excite the
san,i- rancor in the witness that they
.did yesterday. It was as if he realized
Ihat day on the stand was
merely introductory and was in a hurry
to ?jot to the real story.
Once, early in the afternoon, a sharp
objection by Mr. lv.ns on the ground
t**ar the witness was using his own ad?
jective- to describe an episode which
should have been colorless, brought a
hot rejoinder from the Colonel. I am
not, sir!" he shouted.
Warned Against Ivins.
A hint of the reason behind the
I idden acquiescence in the
: the game came during the
morning session. Mr. Ivins had object?
ed tc th" OSS of the term "machine
Republicans." The Colonel insisted
tl he had used it simply because it
-. Senator Davenport in
the eoi venation he was relating.
"Is that the only reason you use it?"
di mandi d dr Ivins.
"I am simply repeating to you," be?
gan the Colonel venomously, every fang
v hen he was halted by a
?ban. reminder from bis counsel.
i't enter into any discussion with
Mr. Ivins," John M. Bowers warned
him. "He'll net hold of you later and
| eve all you want "
-kness of a rebuked
hoy the man whose ambition
ed seven years in the White
bsided. If the Colonel was
being disciplined to-day in prepara
for his cross-examination to
morrow he submitted with soldierly
grace. If it was telf-discipline, his
will gained sirengtB overnight.
Throughout the day the Colonel kept
the purpose which brought him to the
?und in the forefront of his
mind. During the long arguments of
counsel he seldom put in a word. Fre?
quently words poised and clamored for
nee, but the Colonel resolutely
d them back. Not more than
twice did he attempt to put the court
light.
Careful in His Answers.
0
No questions were answered hastily.
When the words came they were those
railed for. It was evident that the
Colonel's busy mind was well ordered,
lie drew a sharp 11r.o between what he
. emembered precisely and what he did
not.
And with all his caution and pre?
cision the Colonel did not lose on-, jot
of Tiger? H?' gained, and he gained
because back in tht-.t rnind whence he
was drawing his recollections was the
dominant thought of the motive which
to-day he could bare to the jury.
Justice Andrews, in announcing the
adverse decision which bothered the
Colonel so little, said that while inde?
pendent facts not included in the
pleading must be barred, the witness
could give evidence as to his own state
of mittd. It was that proviso of the
court ed tne Colonel to de?
slere thai he was inspired only by the
1 is duty as a citizen,
? was the thought of that privilege
that enabled b m to tell his story as
he told it.
Cali ? ii Roe STelt'l testimony, almost
in it- entirety, was neeepted in mitiga?
tion and not in Justification.
By way of a bint of th" difficulties
the Roosevelt forces will have to over
cttme a hi i n?. I an?! his in?
formants are dons With, William Lyon,
of the John B. I.yon Company, Albany
printers, refus? d to-day to produce his
ledger until ordered to do so by
I lurt.
BOSS DOMINATION,
COLONEL'S THEME
Roosevelt Devotes Day as Wit?
ness to Describing Machine
Rule at Albany.
? .-1
acusa, V V., April 21. Colonel
1 SVelt in hi? testimony today
carried his history of "boss domina
talks with
Willism Barnes, from the tune when
11- i rsstlon with
Barnes in ISM up to the time when
thev had their last social meeting in
1911
"My original i in with Mr.
Harnes on what 1 described as 'the
righteousness of bass rule' was at the
bei nning ef my term la the Legis?
lature," said the ( olonel, who went on
to relate how be bud described to Mr.
I nee a summons he had received
from Senator Platt and how shocked
le was to learn that the "Easy Boss"
lud ii.t onlj usurped the functions of
the I s In advance, but had ec
tualiy selected one of Governor Roose
x t ? - cabinet
Senator Platt, the Colonel said he
?I i Parn?s, a-kid bin if he had
i sa he wanted on the legislative
I
"I SI pressed surprise." the Colonel
continued, "inasmuch as the committees
t by the Speaker
and tie hid not hen elected as yet"
Then it was that Mr. Harnes, the
witnes? said, opened bis eyes on the
rewl workings of the boss system m
the stats government The gentleman
from Albany told him that, of course.
. would be elected Speaker who
would not carry out the wishes of the
organisation. It was impossible to
have party government without
bossinm."
C.overnorship in ISO??.
"Mr. Res ! you have any
corree-i.' lecas with Mr Harnea con-.
aerniny tfc??tja?aUer of a Rvjuubhcau J
Monr, Instruments of State's Real Rulers, Says Colonel
candidate for Governor in 190? ?"
Mr. Bowers when tlie Color e 's <f
nr.tion was resumed this mnrnini
the witness said he did,
(} -Did jrou write him a letter
that sab j eel on the 21st day of A
IW81 A. I did.
Q.- Do you recollect having s
versation on the subject n att
that letter either before it was si
after it was senti A. I had coni
tions on that subject in Washit
Whether I also had a eonveraatii
that ?ubjert in Oyster Bay or i
cannot say.
Mr. Bowers offered the letter n
dence, and Mr. Ivins objected,
"We claim," sal! Mr. Hewers,
the evidence is material and
received as bearing upon thi
relation* as existing between the ?
tiff and the defendant Thai
purpose of 'Vis that their rein
Were perfectly friendly; that thej
cursed matters with one ;.
political nature, which continuel
1910. These are in accord with
and we shall establish that in
case."
Returning to the witness, Mr. Bo
said: "1 ara ou to
any conversation that yon had witr
Barne* in the summer of II
upon the nomination for (.
this state." To tins Colonel Roosi
replied:
"The conversations were in conl
ation of col - that we
With him. not retrospections at al
conversation, for instance, bu-ed i
letter of mine to Senator Platt in 1
in which 1 raised the question of
boss over the Governorship w-h;(
discussed with Mr. Hirnes, and w
I stated that t? I that
Barnes and Mr. Platt were taking
evitably led to corruption in gov
ment and tl ' on s wer
continuance with those.
Talked of Boss Rule.
"The first conversation I had '
Mr. Barnes, in which we discussed
state boss, the righteousness of 1
iule and the dominance that the 1
should have in state affairs, wn?
the beginning of my term us Gavel
when 1 went over with him the
experiences 1 had had with Mr. P!
1 told'hin that prior to my bacon
Governor Mr. Platt had asked me
come to set him at the Fifth Ave
Motel. 'It wa? between the time I
elected and the time I assumed of
I told Mr. Harn.s that Mr. Platt
formed me that he and several ot
gentlemen who were there were tal
up the question of the committees
Mr. Ivins Before the witl
tinues 1 wish to enter my objectior
this line of evidence as having
tendency whatever to prove snyth
except to prove the conversatio
character of the parties to t
end not tending to prove don
Mr, Barnes and . impro]
if H Is ntended to prove that beca
Mr. Barnes was dominant as alleged
1914 he may have been dominant
cause somebody else was dominant
1908.
The court ruled that Colonel Roe
velt might answer, and witness w
? on:
"Mr. Platt asked me if there w
any 1 told Mr. Barnes if Mr. PI
had asked me if there were any friei
, I wished to have special consid?rai
i on the committees in the U
I paid no, and asked if the
expressed surprise at the fnrt thai I
committees were appointed inasmt
: as they are supposed to be nomina'
by the Speaker had not been chose
Speaker Must Be Platt Man.
'?The answer of Mr. Platt was tl
would be appointed Spcal
I who did not ajrree to carry out 1
ot the orgnliation and of !
pint;. ! si Mr. Barms am
that cor versation with Mr Platt tl
i my judgment was that such a syal
of government inevitably led to evi
j led to a rotten and unclean govei
"Mr. Barnes stated that
only kind of government thai C"i
onder cur puny system, tl
1 you couldn't have a party system
1 government without bosses, and th
; the leader had to be absolutely r
sponsihlc or he could not exercise t
control which would enable the po
ernmenl to go on. I then Inatane
the nevt conversation that I had l.i
i with Mr. Platt where he had call?
me in"
Q h\ Mr Bowers). What ill I y.
say to Mr. Harnes? A. I sk?.I to M
Barnes that Mr Hlatt had called me
and asked me to see him at the Fifi
\\tiitie Hotel and when I came hn
told me he was glad to say that I
could iret the acceptance of the ma
whom be consider.' 1 beat qualified ft
the most important position under m
that of Superintendent of Pub''
\\ tks, and he congratolated me on th
fact of having such a pood man an
' handed me the telee-ram of acccptanc
by the gentleman in question.
Mr. Ivins objected that unless th
name was givea the testimony shoul
be on: ?
Mr. Roosevelt In the conversatioi
1 don't believe the name was mentioned
but it may have been mentioned. Bu
if it was not, it whs only because Wi
knew it so well that then ,, need
It was Mr. Francis Hendtica
Syrucase I told Mr. Barnes that
had told Mr Platt that I had a h.ir>
regard for Mr. Hendricks, but that foi
particular place I did not intent
to appoint any men along the line ol
the canal counties, and, moreover, 1
didn't intend anybody to choose my ap
point?es, and SCCOrd ru-'v 1 would nol
ai'i'.iint Mr. Hendri tks.
rated then that the 01.
He did
the ?m that Mr. Platt liad spoken to
tun.
On Mr. Ivins's objection, the 1?
part of the answer was stricken out,
The witness continued: He atatl
in substance, that Mr. Platt might ha
been wrong in the way in which I
acted witho t consultation with me, b
he upheld Mr. I'latt's position. In su
stance he said that he upheld the por?
tion that Mr. Platt took as the head
the ?rganisation who had to be dor
inant in the control of the politics
this stale when his party was in powc
In 1900 1 discussed with Mr. Barnes
length in detail correspondence b
tween myself and Mr. Hlatt on this su
ject of the control of the boss over tl
Governor.
The Court Now. gentlemen, we a
getting a little ways awaj from th
ease. The Brst conversations relatir
to the dominance of Mr. l'latt are n
of any Importance except as leadme i
to the eonveraationa with the witnes
The Witness Getting down to 1901
In the conversation in ll'OS I specil
cally referred to my views expressi
to Mr. Platt in my letter of II
.hut I held those views as strongly i
ever, and that the Governor had to I
Independent; that my s>mpathies, n
personal feelings, my personal syn
p.itlr.o.s and friendship, were with M
Barnes and not Mr. Huches. My pe
sonal relations were closer with M
?'m..s. I told this to Mr. Barnc
which he already knew, that my pe
sons] sympathies ?ere with Mr. Barm
rather than with Mr. Hughes, but thi
I held that the Governor, elected I
the people, bad to be independent (
the organisations, as 1 had set it fort
in detail in this letter to Mr. l'latt i
moo.
Mr. Barnes answered that the orgai
ization had to be dominant and thi
he and those who felt like him wei
going to control the organization. /
? that time he said that they would n.
, dominate Mr. Hughes; that Mr. Hugh?
j had tried to break down the organic
?tion, and that he (Mr. Barnes] and tr
other leaders of the organization coi
trolled it absolutely, and would cor
trol the convention and would not to
the domination uf Mr. Hughe
and the conversation directly boi
upon my letter that 1 had written M
Platl ?n 1900 which I had discussed i
the time with Mr. Barnes.
Party Organizations Working Togethe
i). By Mr. Bowers Did ><>u hat
any talk with Mr. Barnes in K'08 coi
' cerning legislation in Albany? A.
Mr. Barnes si okc to me generally o
the subject 01 legislation, not specifi
ing any particular bill that I now ri
..ill. bol stating that Mr. Hughes wi
urging legislation outside of the o;
ganization; that the organization cor
trolled the Legislature, and that th
Democratic organization was in syn
pathy with .the Republican organizi
tion and would join with them in d<
feating any legislation to which the
. that Governor Hughe
backed.
(? Did the plaintiff make any state
ment in these conversations as to hi
position in the party 1 A. The plan
tiff said he and his friends had cor
trol of the party; that they liad cor
, trol of the organization. I don't r?
call that he sa.d that he himself cor
trolled it, but he said that he and hi
friends had control of the organizt
tion and the Legislature would do a
they sind, and that Mr. Hughes coul
not take it away from them.
(.}. Where were you in 1910, th
early part of that year? A. In th
early part of the year I was in I'gand
on ttie Upper White N'ile.
(j. And you retimed to this cour
try at what time* A. I returned aboi
June 20, to the Cnited States.
Q, At that time did you have an
correspond.'nee or any conversatio
with Mr. Barnes? A. I iirid Com
with him, I may have met h il
once and bad conversation with hin
but of that 1 am not sure.
By Mr. Bowers: ? inferring to cor
rersation with Mr Barnes on the com
ing state convention in 1910, after h;
return from Africa.) You had a cor
venation with him on that suhjee
bearing upon the subject of the nt
<i lity of bessea to party government
Barnes Letter 1? Read.
Colonel Roosevelt said there was cor
resp?ndeme on the subject of legisla
tion in Albany, and the letter fror
Mr. Barries read as follow.-:
"'Albany Evening Journal.'
'?Albany, N. V . July 4, 1910.
"My Deai Roosevelt: 1 urn sorr;
that you did not give me an oppor
tunity to ses you before I sailed, fo
my mind is entirely clear regarding th
political situation, and I think that m
judgment i? not absurd.
"Ever since he has been Gcverno
Mr. Hughes has endeavored, througl
Ins speeches and his attitude, to arousi
ntment in every locality .
the men who have Leen doing the po
litical work of the Republican party
Some of those men are the best am
? unselfish of men. Some of then
are the meanest and most selfish o
. men.
"It was a gage of battle thrown dowi
which it was my duty to resist, becausi
if I am to remain in the leadership o
' this county that leadership must be
satisfactory to the Republican p?opl<
1 of the county. I cannot be exploited ai
a machine mude politician or a patron
inker Without resisting the charg?
t( the beat of my strength.
"1 i., .er could subscribe to the doc
trine advanced by the Governor, which
was this: Disagreement with him mcanl
that a man was a rascal.
"What I am most deeply interested
1 in is the subject of d.r.ct nominations,
which, if ever adopted by this state,
will bad t.> in t" il evils III public Hi?
and place therein the cheape-t kind oi
"The attitude o? : ? G ? rr.or tow
, ard the Lij?.?iuturc i? to depopulate
irhoto bt Anurlrsn Pr??s Assort sUon )
the State Senate of men like Kllsworth,
Higgins, Humphrey, Hendricks, Krum
uiiil White. And this has been his at?
titude toward other men in public life,
Bt least, those whom he found there.
And the men who succeeded these Sen?
ators do not measure up to the stand?
ard formerly maintained, for the rea?
son that men do not want to go to
the Legislature if it means that their
opinions must be surrendered without
even the possibility of consultation on
the merit? of legislation.
"Of course, the n< wspupers will urge
you to make an effort to have the state
convention adopt a direct nomination
plank. Of course, you realize that those
who oppose that proposal on principle
will be compelled to contest it.
"The Meads Phillips bill ought to :
have been signed by Governor Hughes.
It embodied all of his recommenda
w.th the exception Of '.he direct
nominations feature. The Cobb bill was
. and not Id per cent of the
men who voted for it in the Legislat?
ure would have done so were it not for
tact that they feared for their
skins.
"The party is structurally weak, and
although Wadswortk would bo the
?tr?na? ' late for Governor for
vote getting purposes I think ho would
BOt consider the nomination. The can- :
didate for Governor, however, should
be one of the strongest individuality.
The reflected glory of the Hughes ad
ministration would weaken rather than
strengthen a man.
"I noticed your interview in 'The
World' in which you said you did not
talk, but strike. You certainly could
i..: expect that we who have been op?
posing direct nominations for four
could chante our positions over?
night. Sincerely yours.
WILLIAM BARNES, JR.
"Hon. Theodore Roosevelt."
i Also an addendum as follows:
Primary Sentiment a Fiction.
"Your letter has just come. On my
return on the 30th of July I shall com?
municate with you in the hope of seeing
you. The men with whom I have been
co-operating will never relinquish their
ti '.it ag.ut.st the principle of direct
nominations, but will favor every poa
sible reform to our primary system, so
that people will be encouraged to go to
primarios for a fair shake there.
"The so-called sentiment for direct
primaries does not exist. It is purely
pro Hughes sentiment and has nothing
to do with the merits of the proposal.
Governor Hughes advocated the plan,
but he did it purely to make an issue,
nut believing that we had the courage
or the political strength to back up our
opinions. The principle of committee
nominations with a ratitication pri?
mary is worse than direct nominations
in every possible way, beca.se the
committee making the nominations is
compelled to make up its judgment a
month before the primary, and any
malcontent under the guiss of regu?
larity can kick rp a fuss o. can te ?n
duii'd to dj so by corrupt leaders on
the other side. He will not care
w nher or not he wins at the primary,
bu. he will have weakened the ticket
so that it cannot make the race.
"Direct nominations are an invita
i tion to party discord, but their evil
could be minimized by '.lie holding of
unofficial primaries and unofficial con?
ventions, which would unquestionably
be done
"The idea of getting rid of 'bosses'
'is abaurd :??> long as >ou i.uw party
government
"The direct-nominations idea is a
confusion in the mind of the functions
of mi individual us a member of a
party, a voluntary organization, and
the functions of a citizen.
"The people do the electing, but the
party should be free to frame up its
proposals to the people in their own
way, safeguarding them against fraud.
"I sincerely lope and trust that you
' will not become committed in such a
way that it will force an issue at the
toga convention on this question.
We should have a primary plank of the
strongest possible kind to protect voters
ni..] gire them every opportunity to ex
press theme-elves in conventions.
"The convention is the last day of
training for the battle of the campaign.
To have a committee nomination with
a ratification primary would be like
changing generals in the middle of a
battle.
"The campaign would be really start?
ed iindi r the Cobb bill when the nomi?
nations are made by the committees.
Then for four weeks opportunity is
given to those inside the party to com?
plain legitimately, because the nomina?
tions are tentative
"When nomination? are made thev
should be final. If the people do not
like them they can beat them at the
polls, but the members of a party
should have chance prior to the pri?
maries and conventions to exercise
their judgment and express their will."
The answer of the Colonel to this
letter was mislaid. It will be looked up
Bnd if not found the Colonel will give
the substance of it to-morrow.
y Did you in P.'IO have any con
vrsations with any persons concerning
the primary legislation? I am referring
now to persons other than Mr. Barnes.
Mr. Ivins I object.
Mr. Bo-vers I propose to show r.ow
the facts that were repeated to him
concerning the legislation at Albany in
? und 1?-10, during the Hughes ad?
ministration, which we set up in our
answ.r
Reward for Racetrack Vote.
The Court As I understand it this
'allegation js substantially that Mr.
an, a member of the Senate, told
some other Senator that was going to
? vote for the Agnew*Hart bill thai he
could not that Mr. Barnes,
..!?'?-. hd?i directed them
IS - 1'jence,
-? - Mr. Harne* and
i inuuiTsd ui hun c-.sV rame th? matter.
QUEER how completely
this country has
adapted itself to this
war. Here we are. witness?
ing the greatest conflict in
the world'? history, and yet
how frw people are follow?
ing closely the movement?
of the troops abroad.
"But I don't know where I
can get it all without wad
ing through five or six col?
umns rvery day," you say.
We'll trll you where?our
editorial page, t'.very not?
able event is there, not iso?
lated from related facts, but
placed in its proper setting
?interpreted. Krank H.
Simonds has done the sort?
ing out for you.
Zht iTrtbtme
First to Last the Truth
New? ? Editorials ? Advertisements
and Mr. Barnes told him that he had
changed his mind; that Mr. Grattaa
thereupon voted against the racetraci<
bill; that he was subsequently made
County Clerk of the Count] of Albany,
Mr. Barnes being in control of the Al?
bany organisation.
Now, that, of course, is pleaded as a
defence, but it la not a defence. If it
is receivable el all it ean only be re?
leeivable in mitigation. It can only be
' receivable in mitigation if it is alleged
( that those farts came to the knowl?
edge of the defendant prior to the is?
suance of that article. That allegation
is not made.
y. Did you have any conversation :
in D'lO with any person other than
Mr. Barnes concerning the so-called
racing legislation in 1908 or there?
abouts? A. I am not sure.
Q. Was your attention called to
that mutter in any way? A. I think it
was called to it, but very superficially.
The whole emphasis was on the pri?
mary legislation in 1910.
Talks with Senators.
Q. Did you have any Ulk with any
one on that subject prior to the issu?
ance of this artice? A. I think I did.
I talked at groat length with Senator
Davenport, at length with Senator
Newcomb, and also with Senator Hin
nittii over the action of the Legislature
on this racctiack legislation.
Q. The H.'.rt Agnew bill? A The
Hart-Agnew bill. My belief is that the
subject was mentioned to me in 1910,
but I am n"t sure, und certainly no
?tress w;i- sid upon it. My full In?
formation nl out it came first in April,
1912) and then at greater length in i
1914, but in 1911 also. Senator Daven?
port and S. nator Newcomb informed
me that at lirst there was no opposi?
tion, as far ai they knew, from Mr.
Barnes to th- racetrack bill; that later
the opposition developed very strongly,
tile Kepuiiluan legislators, who fol?
lowed the lead of Mr. Barnes, and the
Tammany leg ilatora. who followed the
lead of Senator Grady, uniting against
the bill.
Q. That is what they told you?
, A. That is what they told rne. They
i told me that th ? passage of the bill de
': pended up"n votes that they hud, that
I Senator Giuttan had favored the bill, ;
, had been for it very strongly; that he
I had Fsid that he would not be for it;
, that he th?n acknowledged that he had
to change because Mr. Barnes said he
; must change, and 'hat he hated te do
?0, but that ho had to do it, and that
change of that one vote for the time
being beat the bill. This was sub?
stantially the conversation I had with
a gentleman, of Mr. (?rattan's turn- :
ing over, which he avowed us being
due to Mr. Burnes's influence. 7
a conversation that they had with me ,
that Mr. Gnittan had changed laid
that he did so in accordance with Mr.
Barnes's directions, und that Mr. Grat?
tun's vote added to the Tummany vote
that was behind Senator Grady. and to
the Republican machine vote, for the
time being just b"at the racing bill. It
was Senator Davenport and Senator
' Newcomb that explained to me thai
gave In full the details. My remem?
brance is that Senator Hinman merely
made an allusion to Barnes having
forced poor (?rattan to change his vo'e
; and beat the bill.
Had Separate Conversation?.
Q. Were those conversations wi'h
Mr. Davenport and with Mr. Newcomb
' when they were together or were they
separate conversations with them?
A. I certainly had a separate conver
' satiorr with Senator Davenport, and I
believe that I had a conversation with
b.'th Senator Davenport and Senator
| Newcomb together. I know I had three
or r'o.ir conversations with Senator
I Newcomb and Senator Davenport to
i gether about it. but I can only say I
believe that one of those conversa-ions
was before July 22. I know I hi.
eral joint conversations, but I can only
say thut 1 think thut one joint conver
. sation was before July 22.
Q. Had you never heard that matter
until the gentlemen made those state?
ments to von ?
A. I don't believe I have ever heard
of it. It is possible that at the end of
1910 or some time in 1911 my atten?
tion was called by Senator Duvenport
to the article in "McClure's Magazine"
which contained a statement about this
question, but the article, the part of
the article to which I take heed, was
of entirely different type, and I am
not sure of the tins when that was
called to my attention. The article,
was called to my attention long prior
to July 22, 1914, but it may not have
h.en called to my attention until the
spring of 1912,
I had conversation with the gentle?
men named, about the primar',
lation, not alone in conversation with
Senator Davenport, but also in con?
versation with Senator Newcomb a
long conversation with Senator New
comb and shorter und more general
one with Senator Hinman. They told
me when Governor Hughes made the
fitfht
Ivins Wants to Know.
Mr. Ivins May I be permitted to ask
which one told what thing.' This com?
posite picture ef a eonvereetien is
something unknown to me in the prac?
tice of lsw for the la-it forty years.
Witness, resuming And Senator
Davenport to.d me that when Gov?
ernor Hughes urged primary legisla?
tion that the vote of the Republican
I.egisla'ure approved the machine Re?
publicans joined with the Tammany
Democrats under Senator Grady s lead
and defeated it.
He told me on one occasion, when a
bill which the advocates of direct f?n
mury regarded as against the cau?.- of
'..rect primaries was. being pushed,
that one of tne Republican Senatois
got up in the Senate and asked that
the Senate adjourn, and that the Re?
publican? nuet in such and such a
; room for conference, and that Sena
j tor Grady, the Tammany Hall leader
of the Democrats, immediately got up
! and asked that the Dem?crata meet
1 in another room, which, he said, was
adjacent to the other room, tor con?
ference; that Senator Davenport
walked out into the ha I and -aw Mr.
Barnes erne up and enter th.
? atoii,. thai the Repub..cuu State Sena
I tout went into that loom, into ?hieb.
Mr. Jlarnc? nao rom?*, miv ?.
tic Stall- Senators, with Sri.ato
went into the adjacent room.
I think t|,,.t he, Mr. Da
opened the door <in?l looked :
room in which the Republlei
met. ?o as to be sure thaf h" '??-':
and that they were meeting th?
Mr. Harnes, who wa? not i? Btl
a'or or a member of the Legl
he saw Mr. Barns
feronee with the Republican
aft'-r the lapse of a certain pet
machine Republican Senators c:
of the room tu which thai liad
conference with Mr. Barnes i
D?mocratie Senators. The Ti
Senators cime out of the roon
they bad been un?ler Senator
th;?* they cams oui Into the Log
und euch contribu?.? ?I lubstantli
same I" ' 'n'' votes.
thai he said that they eo trlbs
Bctly the lams amount fourti
fourtei n, bul I iy 1 s In ?'rr?.r
F.a?*h contributing equally th?
proportion to the rott, passed
In qUC Itlon. I am not cle-ir ns
numb? r of roti i, bul I am elea
the meaning of th" Rep?blica
ntors in one room In consult?t!*
Mr. Hirnes and the meeting
Democratic Senators in the rex
ander the leading of Mr. Or?
coming out and voting stierest
beat the proposition against
titude taken by Mr. Hughes a
Hughes'i supporters on this p
legislation.
Q. Whr?n you say that Mr.
was in the room wi'h the R.-p
S'-nators, do you mean all the
Mean A. No, 1 thi*.
the machine Republican Senator
hint Objects Again.
Mr. Ivins I object to that.
Witness I used It because it
term used by Senator Davenport
Mr. [vins And for no Other pu
' , other purpo 10.
Colonel Roosevelt I am rer
the statement made to me by S
Davenport. It was made to me i
or three oceusions; on certain
sions he said the machine Repul
?I think more often he said
Harnes Republican Senators." Ar.
was the conversation 1 had wit
Davenport. Senator N'ewcomb des
substantially the same thing. II?
the expression of the machine n
Senator did not say to me that r
seen Barnes in the room; it wai
ator Davenport who said to me tl
had seen Barnes in the room. Si
N'ewcomb said to me that the E
Republican Senators held a confu
and the Tammany Hall Demo
tors followed Grady after a
lerence to get their Beads togethe
beat the Hmrhes. or independent,
ators. and described to me the j<
one of the Barnes Republican
tors
Mr. Ivins- I object to that a
proper.
Q. Described to you the je?
whom? A. -Of a Barnes Repul
Senator.
Mr. Iv:ns I object, and I under
your honor not to admit that.
The Court No; that Is immatei
(?. Is that all? Do you know
name of the bill in question?
don't remember the name of the b
y. isn't it the Phillips bill M
Phillips? A. I had forgotten.
Wants to Refresh His Mind.
Q. -Do you remember Mr. H;
epeaklng to you regarding any ?
itive matter where Senator .
was concerned? A. I do. May
allowed to refresh my mind by loc
a? that "McClure's" article to see
?t contains?
The Court Yes, when we adjou
Mr. Ivins I fail to fiad any p
Ing of any combination between D
crutic and Republican SenatOI -
The Court Perhaps I used the w
words "any combination." 1 will a
them to give in mitigation any evid
in regard to the fact Cat the Di
cratic and Republican S"nators v
together for Mr. Allds as pr?sider
the Senate.
Mr. Ivins There is no allegat o
tha? effect There : - no d<
distinction as to who they were.
The Court " 1 bal under the lea
ship of Senator Grady, the leade
the Senate, votes of a majority of
rutic minority were ci
Allds. the candidate of the Republ
caucus."
Mr. Ivins Down to that point?
The Court Yes.
Mr. Ivins Ano no further.
(J. Did you believe the si
that were made to you by Sen;
Davenport and Senator Hinman? i
I believed it absolutely.
Belie*.ed What He Read.
Q. Did you believe all you rcfui
the article in "McClure's Magazin
A. 1 believed it ab olutely. I ?h
! early in 1910 it became necesa
. to elect a president who wus to
ent of the Senate, and the (
cial leader of the majority party.
Republican party, chosen as such
caucus by the Republican Senat?
Senator N'ewcomb told n
chine Senators chose Stat?
Allds for that position; tl-.at a sect
, of the independents or Hughes si
machine Senators, Republican Senat?
! voted at the caucus, and that tl
would not support Allds. leaving '
machine men unable to elect Allds
'their own votes lack of majority
ti;e Senate and Senator Newco
then informed me that Senator Gri
end S number of the Tammany Sei
tors then voted for Mr. Allds as pro
dent of the Senate, a sufficient i.u
ber. using his words, of the machi
Democrats joinin"; with the machi
Republicans I think he said t
Barnes Republicans, but it may h?
been the machine Republican
. nt of the Sen.?le. So
'..i sleeted prssidont of the Senate
two bodies of machine Democrat- B
machine Republicans enouirh Dem
crats voting together to offset ?nd
pendent Republicans that refused
support Mi. Allds to render the m
; chine unable to elect him by their o*.
roteo, and the deficiency we
by the votes of Senator Gradv and t
machine Democrats who went wi
him.
Senator N'ewcomb asked me to r
member that the machine Domocra
.. on!) voted to make Allds preside
of the Senate, but they voted to mal
him leader of the Republican party
the Senate, so that Allds wh.s mai
leader of the Republican party in tl
Senate by Tammany votes under tt
leadership of Grady. ?
Mr. Bowers Do you remembi
that Senator N'ewcomb made any refe
encc to the action of certain llepul.l
can Senators at the time of tf.
tion of Mr. Allds as temporary
man. Do you remember what it was ?
said to you? A. Senator New,,,,,,
also informed me that the com*,
between the machine Democrat
the Barnes Republicans, whieh i
in Mr. AUds's nomination, held durin
the early stage of the proceeding
st Mr. Allds, by which he ?
peached for bribery and thrown out 8
th?- Senate months afterward.
Mr. Ivins I object, as a matter c
fact he was not thrown out of th
Senate, he resigned; he was not im
peached, and we cannot try that cas
here
The Court Whether he was or no
is entirely immaterial. This is mere:
what was told to the witness. Whethe
it was actually true or not is entire!
immaterial.
Mr [vins Suppose he put in th
first chapter of Genesis?
The Court If it was material, as
ho!?l this to be. I would aiimi* if
Mr. Roo-evelt continues And ?ha
after almost all the other members ?->
? 'mbmation bad aban.i
to d fond Mr. Allds, Banator Grad'
still made a speech in hi? ?behalf.
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Of linen, ?ponge and Palm Beach cloth?$35
Featuring a wide range of Smart Su its for Misses, et *3S
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for street, calling, and semi-dress wear.
Reproduced foreign models by Jenny, Cal lot. Paquin.
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Smart ?Winery
for in-toun, out-of-tou.n or en (our.
Dr-ss and Semi-Dross Sty'cs??nthe
newest sunshade, sailer, and turb n
styles ; w1 ite and light colors, in hemp, kid,
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Street and Travel Hats?in comfort?
able, close-fitting styles, with smart, sub?
stantial trimmings, that retain their "chic*
despite the wear and tear of everv-day
service? $15, $18.
Outing Hats?i" Bangkok, hemp, milan, silk
and \mm?$12, $14, $16.
Q. Did you have any conversare
with any of those Senators concernii
of Senator Sti'lwell? A.
did.
Mr. N'ewcomb Kx-Senator N'ewcon*
in formed me that the combination f?
certain purposes between the Republ
can end machine Democrats continu?
and that what had been done by tl
machine Democrats In aid of Allds wi
reciprocated by what some of the mi
chine Republicans did in the case <
Senator Stillwell, who, he informed m
was charged
Mr. Ivins I object. What he wi
charged with was proved by the re
?mi. It Is incompetent and imprope
The Court He may go on.
Mr. Roosevelt cont. nues -Was charge
with bribery, and his expulsion fro
. i demanded, and by accommi
machine Democrats and mi
chine Republicans was kept in the Sei
ate. I do not know whether he fill?
i out his term in the Senate
The Court That is immaterial. Th
conversation was the only thing.
Witness I meant I had forgotte
whether he told me that he filled 01
or not. He was convicte
outside and put in prison, but I ha
itten whether that was after
Mr. Ivins I object to that. Did h
tell vou about his conviction?
Witness -He did. He told me tha
on the same charge he was convicte
and sent to the penitentiary, but I d
not remember whether he said it wa
. before or after his term as Senato
expired.
lia*, ne Committee Report.
Q. By Mr. Bowers Mr. Roosevell
were you a delegate to the state con
: in 1910? A. 1 was.
Q. Mr Barnes was also a delegate
A, Mr. Harries was a delegate.
Q. Who was nominated for Gov
ernor; do you remember? A. Mr. Stim
son was nominated for Governor.
Q. And do you remember whethe
he'was elected or not? A. He was de
feated.
Q. Do you remember being show
IS time a copy of a report said t
have been made by a legislative com
mittee called the Bayne Committee, i
torial committee? A. -I do.
?J How did you happen to ?ee tha
r? A. My nephew, Douglas Rob
inson. was a member of the Legislatur
st that time, and a cousin of mine
Franklin Roosevelt, was a member o
the Senate, and both of them callei
my intention to it. Robinson first.
(}. Did you make any inquiry as ti
; th" Senators who constituted tha
mittee? A. I did.
(,! They were who, if you remem
her? A The Republican member wa:
wright, whom I knew well an?
respected highly. I knew of Messrs
Bayne and Burd very well as anti
machine Democrats. Mr. Bayne I ha?.
met.
Q. Did you have conversation wit!
? any one about that time concernm?.
the Senatorial election of 1911? A.
I did.
Q. With whom? A. With Mr. Loeb
I nl*>o diseussed with Mr. Loeb at th?
same time the combination betweer
crooked business ard crooked politics
set forth in that report.
(rooked Politics at Alban>.
Mr. [vins I object to proceeding an>
further along the lines of bis dis
Mr. Loeb in respect tc
thoio matters.
'1 tie Court He may give in mitiga?
tion of damag' s any information he re
? ceived from Mr. Loeb about matters
pleaded, in which he believed Mr. Loeb.
(} By Mr. Powers Who was he?
A Mr. WilUuni J. Loeb He served
as stenographer when I was Governor,
he being an Albany boy. He was rny
private secretary daring the time I was
President, first as assistant to Mr.
Cortelyou and then as private secre
? if, and he was Collector of
the Port of New York under President
Taft. Mr. Loeb informed me, partly
in answer to certain questions of mine,
partly on his own initiative, that tho
combination of crooked business and
crooked politics as to which I hud
I * g shown by the Bayne
report in Albany, extended not only
to business like printing, but to busi?
ness of the worst type, such as I had
found.
Mr. Ivins -I object.
Witness I am giving what Sir. I^jeb
told me.
Mr. Ivins You are giving what you
said is the woist type.
Witness I am not.
Mr. [vins- You are making an ad
dr?-.-,s to the jury with regard as to
what you regard as the worst type.
The Court Wait a moment. If there
is an objection taken it must be taken
to me.
Mr. Ivins My objection is to the de?
fer.
The Court When an objection is
taken it will be taken with me. When
"i is taken, the witness will
ring until I have ruled on it.
Mr. Pins I object to proceeding
furth ft? many.
Th**J Court The statement as to local
Ubany is immaterial.
' Witness I cannot s ,y about what
Mr. I.oeb said to me about the comb
nation of eroeked business und crook*?
politics in connection with, gambling
nouses?
The Court That is inrrnaterial.
Murphy to Ha?e a Free Hand.
The witness That is immaterial? I
am not allowed to ?ay teat Mr. Leeb
informed me that at the time of tht
election of a Senator to succeed Sen?
ator Depew in 1911, I think, when
there aras a Democratic ms,onty at
thu Legislature and wh'-n there wss s
split between the machina DemocrsU
and anti-machine Democratic Senators
that he, Mr. I.oeb, went to see Mr.
Barnes to ask Mr. Barn.-* if th? Rs
pubhcans in th ? L?gislature would not
support an anti-machine Democrat for
Senator, and that Mr. Barnes antwtr?<i
him, saying that he could not do 10 be?
cause 1,is I Mr. Barnes's) errsng?m?ni
wirh Murphy was that M.\ llurphyes?
to hav?j a free hand in the election of
the United States Senator?
(J. -Did you learn from sny one -
was any staumer.t made to you by sny
one concerning that situation? A.?I
think several statements were msd?
to me.
W. And by whom? Any by Mr.
Loeb? A. Mr. I.oeb and Mr Franklin
D. Koosevelt. I do not r.-member any
other people speaking to me.
Q. what did either of them is?
upon that subject? A. I do not re
member anything special thst they
eait?!
Q. ?Do you remember what Franklin
Roosevelt said to you* A Frsnklm
Roosevelt spoke to me on the geriers!
legislative situation, including the
United States Senatorship.
The Fight Against \hesra.
He stated that he caPed my a'ter.
tion to his published statements aboir
the work of the I re, claiming
credit for the independent Pemocrsti
for having tina..y I ?reed machm?
Democrats to abandon their original
Democrat for Senator and ?aking Is
a man acceptable to all the Demo?
crats. He called my attention to th?
union of the independent m> :< I f botn
parties by which the> beat the ras
o? both [.ail.'"' using th?
words, the "Barnes machine" snd th?
"Murphy n they
beat the Barnes machine and the Mur
phjr machine in the pr.niary fight, snd
he stated to me
C? Mr. [?/ins wants you to stop, but
I do not consent to his asking to?
v. ?tneaa a qui il ob.
Mr. Ivins No; 1 as'< voi. whst h?
meurs b.\ the primary ftghl The word
"primary" ? - mean
,nf,< * ? ,.
Mr. Bowers I will when he finish?!
the answer.
Mr. Ivins Then I objl
ceedin along this list? ?round
that any n * ^U
without gome definition or understand?
ing as to what is meant by th? term
"primary tight" is irrelevant and imrria
?' .
The Court Mr. R^ ?riving
the convei? I rV**''
now. He is giv;nx I lance 01
what Mr. Roosev? ' ' *"<*?
Mr. Etoosevi i what primary
n\uroMiA
^expositions
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Round Trip v.a
We?t Shore R. &
$98.80
Round Trip via
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going or returning
All ronr -raesdons ghatSg so?w?r?td.
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