New-York tribune. [volume], May 10, 1919, Page 4, Image 4

About New-York tribune. [volume] (New York [N.Y.]) 1866-1924

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Wliitman
TLVo Bribery;
Are Shot al
He Emphatically Deuies
He Offcred Citizenship
to Friend of Senator in
Kxehanse for His Vote
Cotillo Says Orr Did It
\ New York Member Naraes
Secretary as Man Wlio
Urged Vote for Perkins
- Continoed from page 1
l Forty-fourth Street, a thirty-sixth-hour
1 speaking barrage started at noon yes?
terday and will be laid down inces
' santly until the hour of twelve is
struck to-night.
The Victory ship?the Calhoun?Is
ateamingfor New York harbor at full
speed. Its advance has beon geared
' to the progreas of the loan campaign.
The laggjng held up the ship during
the early part of the campaign, but
it is expected to arrlve in the Victory
harbor on time.
Rear Admiral T. J. Cowie, Navy
t Liberty.loan offlcer, yesterday sent the
following radio message to Command?
er J. H. Towers; commanding the
question," answered Mr. Whitman.
"The Prett bill was not before me. I
have talked with several people about
the bill; it is aimilar to this"
"The Carson-Martin bill is practi
cally the Pratt bill," explained Mr.
Moss.
Bill Not Before Him
"I stated to several people," said
the witneas, ,"that of course I couid
not act upon a measure that was not
before me;., that at the request, or
suggestion, I ean hardly say request.
of the various persons, that I would
not send an cmergency measage for
it; that at that time, I think it was in
March a year ago, my general poai
tion waa'rather unfavorable. I would
not say what I would do until tho bill
was before me. *
"I never said that I would sign it
and 1 never said that I would veto it.
To that extent I took a position. I
stated that it seemed to me that it
was inopportune. I did not believe
that that bill could pass, and I do not
balieve now that it could have passed.
I think now that it would have been un
wise to pass it at that session, but I
am not sure what I would have done
after careful consideration of the bill,
because it was a large question and
people of large view and conscience in
regard to it were in doubt upon it, and
I think the Legislature was quite in
doubt about it."
Q-?Well, in these conversations with
various persons, members of the Legis?
lature and others.-did you not cauae it
to be.known..that jk>U were antagonistic
to the bill? **
Didn't Say He Wouldn't Sign
A.?I don't know how to answer that
question, Mr. Moss. You understand
it is an improper question. What I
? stated is tne trUth. I think it very
likely that some of the members of the
Legislature did believe thtt I was not
favorable to the bill, and it was true; I
was not. But I never stated that I
wouldn't sign it.
Q.?Do you know that it died in the
Committee on Rules because of the be?
lief that you were opposed to it? A.?
I did not know it.
Q??And you did not do anythmg to
give it life orvitality? A.?I did not.
I declined tp send an emergeney mes?
sage. I did state that I had no objec
tion whatever to its being introduced.
Q,?In March of this year did you
talk with General Vanderbilt about
being retained by the Interborough
company with reference to the aubject
of increased revenue? A.?With refer
enve to the subject of Increased reve?
nue, I think General Vanderbilt some
weeks before we were retained asked
me if my firm was in a position to do
some law business for the Interborough.
His Talk With Vanderbilt
Q.-^In the- conversation with Gen?
eral Vanderbilt waB not the ftnancial
situation of the railroad discussed? A.
j ?I think he said he thought things
were" in rather a had way,
Q.?And didn't you understand that
' the .?warticular reason why it was de
sired to have. your firm added to the
legaT assistants of the company waa
j because the flnances of the company
were in bad shape, owing to the in
' come being too small? A.?Well, I
suppose the flnances were in bad shape
because the income waa too small. That
was not the language he used. He said
* the road was in bad shape, and they
l needed more- counsel and wanted to
know if we could accept a retalner.
Q.~And wa? the pendency of the
Carson-Martin bill discussed between
you and the general? A.?Never.
Q..?When did you first talk to Mr.
j Shonts about the proposed retainer?
A.---It was, perhaps, about March 18 or
20, or later.
Tells of Conversation
He Had With T. P. Shonts
Q.?Will you state the conversation
you had with Mr. Shonts? A.?Mr.
Shonts asked me bow business was and
H w? were then in a position to ac
Charges
Ex-Governor
j cept a retainer, to accept some busi
? ress for the company. Mr. Shonts ex
j prcssed his very keen regret at the in
j aoivency of these companies, and,
j somewhat in detail, went into his own
j work during the last years. I stated to
him that, "Of course, Mr. Shonts, you
! understand 1 am not in a position or
I mv flrm is not in a position to do
' lobbying, to act as a lobbylst, or to in
I fluence legislation." He said, "1 under
; atand that."
Q.?Was the pendency of the bill in
Albany mentioned? A.?I think it was.
Q.?Did yoji express your opinion as
i to whether it was a good bill? A.?I
! did. I told him 1 thought it was a very
\ desirable bill, as I told many poople.
Q.?Was anythina said of your at?
titude toward the Pratt bill, of thc pre
vious sesBion? A.?There was not.
Q.?Did any one ask you how it was
you could favor the Carson-Martin
j bill at thia session of the Legislature
| and oppoao the Pratt bill when you
I were Governor? A.?You are assum
i ing that I opposed the Pratt bill, Mr.
i Moss.
Did Not Let It Die
Q.?I am assuming that you favored
j it and let it die because?. A.?I did
not let it die, Mr. Moss.
Q.?Weil, you did not give it any
help. A.?These gentlemen were re
sponsible for the bill. I was not in
favor of it, that is true.
Q.?Did you leave that conference of
last March with Mr. Shonts, with the
understanding that you had been re?
tained, and it was merely a question
: of time and the making out of a
1 check, and arranging of terms, when
you would get your retainer check?
A.v-I expected to be retained, yes.
Q.?Weil, weren't you retained that
day? A.?Weil, it is a question what
ydu mean by retainer, Mr. Moss. They
would have been in a position not to
continue with us, I think. He told me
that the retainer would be arranged.
These long matters, as he expressed
it, must be arranged with counsel. I
expected to be. I had informed Senator
Thompson that we were working for
Interborough, or expected to be, I
have forgotten the term I used.
Q-?Are you sure you told Senator
Thompson you were retained, or ex?
pected to be retained, at the time you
had the conversation, March 29? A.?I
did. As he expressed it, as I under
atood it, that Mr. Shonta sent us. I
told him Mr. Shonts sent me to him.
Did Not Mention Shonts
Q.?Yes, you told him Mr. Shonts
8*nt,,y0Ur t0 him? A-~l did not say
ao, Mr. Moss.
9-~2id, you not? A-~T did not.
Q.?Did you say that Mr. Shonts had
retained you, or you expected to be re
mention Mr. Shonts's name
, Q. Did you testify at the last hear
m8 ~u th,B com*nittee that you told
/it. .mpson you had been retained
at the time you saw him? A. I think I
did. I do not recall whether I did or
not, but I think I did. I told him we
were not retained for the purpose of
advancing legislation.
Q. I refer to page 218 of your testi?
mony before this committee. A. I told
him that we had not been.
Q. I refer you to the question which
was put tO you by Mr. Cheney, and
your answer?of course, speaking now
of the time you talked with Mr. Thomp?
son: "Were you at that time in the
employ of the Interborough Railroad
Company, street railroad, or whatever
its name is, popularly known as the
Interborough? A. My flrm, Whitman,
Ottinger & Ransome, I think at that
time we had not been retained. We
were the next week on some various
matters." A. That is the time the re?
tainer came to us, the next week, Mr
Moss.
Not Retained Until
Got Check, He Thought
Q. Weil, do you consider the check
the retainer? A. Why, yes. I thought
so at that time.
Q. Weil, the check is the retainer
check, but the retainer is the agree
ment to become counsel and client,
! tnt i. A- Wel!' there is no Question
| about that. I will say ves, we were
| employed at that time.
! Q. Didn't you consciously leave this
committee with the impression, when
| you testified before it, that at the time
iyou had the talk with Thompson you
| had not been retained by the company'
A. I do not think so. I explained to
this committee our conversations with
I Mr. Shonts the week before.
i Q. But didn't you say that you had
j not been retained? A. Along that line
; exactly. I said we had not received
I the retainer. We had not.
j Q. You did not aay?pardon me?
from this record that you had received
, a check? A. The record speaks for
i itself.
! Q. It says you had not been retained?
IA. Ihe record speaks for itself.
The Talk With Quackenbnah
! Q. Do you kpow at the meeting of
the executive committee or board of
directors, on the 25th of March, that
Mr. Shonts reported he had retained
I you? A. I do not know that.
Q?Do you remember the conversa
j tion that you had with Mr. Quacken?
bush on the twenty-eighth of March
I that was one day before the conver
j sation with Thompson ? A?Yes.
! Q?Will you state what you recall of
j the conyeraation you had with Mr.
( Quackenbush on the twenty-eighth ? A?
? Weil, we had a conversation with Mr.
i Quackenbush and Mr. Shonts. I talked
j to Mr. Quackenbush for a few moments
! alone m his office. Mt. Shonts was
| engaged. Then we went into Mr.
Shontfl's offioe. The conversation was
, very brief. He did epeak to me rela
| tive to the Martin Bill. I told him
i that with regard to it 1 asaumed that
: it would pass the Assembly, that J
j did not know whether it would be suc
j cessful in the Senate. Mr. Quaeken
bush himself expressed very grave
doubts about it. He then told me that
he had talked with Mr. Shonts, that we
would go in and talk with Mr. Shonts
relative to the situation. 1 expressed
to Mr. Quickenbush the deaire of my
firm to do such business for them as
we could. We went in to aee Mr. Shonts
and were with him for a very brief
time. There was nothing particularly
discussed.
Q-?Did you tell ?Ir. Quackenbush
tho fact that you had acquaintances
all over tha stato in that conversa?
tion? A?I may have said I had nu
merous acquaintances. As the Gov?
ernor of the state I had.
Q?Did you say that with refer?
ence to the service that you might be
able to render the company? A?I mav
: have said that, I do not recall it. I
j did say to him that I presume I should
j aee Senator Thompson, and possibly
i Senator Davenport in the future.
Q?Did you ask him what Senators
were opposed to the Carson-Martin
bill? A?He may have volunteered
that, I did not ask him. It wa3 pub?
lic knowledge in the newapapcrs.
Q?I am not asking so much as to
whether he volunteered it, but I ask
you the direot question, and I ask
you to search your memory?did you
ask him what Senators wero opposed
to the bill? A?I did not.
Q.?Did you say, not from any
suggestion of Mr. QuackenbuBh, but
out of your own mind, and from your
own thought?did you say you would
see Thompson? A.?-I said I expected
that Senator Thompson and other
Senators would be in town, and that
I would see them. I think I did.
Says Glynn Told Him
Thompson Would Come
Q.?tThat is unquestioned, but did
you say you would see him? A.?I
?aid I expected to see him, I think.
Q.?You said you expected to see
him? A.?I had already expected to
see him.
Q-?Had you taken any measures to
see Senator Thompson? A.?I had not
taken measures to see Senator Thomp?
son, but as I recall it Mr. Glynn, the
chairman of the state committee, had
told me as I testified before, that
Senators?members of the Legislature
?would be down in the city at the
parade of the 27th Divis'ion, that he
wanted me to talk to Senator Thomp?
son and one or two others?ho did
not mention the others; that Senator
Thompson was away, as he expressed
it, from the party; that he thought
after he talked with him, that it ruight
be a good thing if I would see him and
talk things over, or words to that ef
fect. That was probablv Monday or
Tuesday before. I told Mr. Glynn I
would be glad to see any of them, and
I would be very glad to see Thompson,
if he cared to come to see me. Mr.
Glynn said, "I will ajjf him," or words
to that effect. I did tell Mr. Quacken?
bush, and I think I told Mr. Shonts?
I am net sure of it?that I would be
very glad to talk with Senator
Thompson about the bill, and I would
be very glad to talk with Senator
Davenport about the bill, as I certain
ly was.
Did Not Suggcst It
Q.?Well, why did you suggest that
you would see Senator Thompson?
A.?I did not suggest it. I told him
that I expected to see Sena*ir Thomp?
son.
Q.?Didn't you consider yourself
retained by the company, at the close
of that conversation with Mr. Quacken?
bush on the 28th of March, the
amount of the retainer fixed, and he
promised to send it to you. A.? On
the 28th?
Q.?Yes. A.?I ghould say yes.
Q.?And that was the day before the
conversation with Thompson?
A.?That was the day before. I say
we were employed, but the retainer
had not come.
Q.?Well, did you think you would
be rendering services under that re?
tainer by talking to Senator Thomnson
and Senator Davenport? A.?No, air, I
did not.
Q.?Why not?
A.?Because we were not retained
for lobbying purposes. I was perfect
ly willing to talk to Senator Thoap
son about the bill.
Shifts to Perkins Nomination
At this point Mr. Moss shifted to the
special legislative session in the sum?
mer and of fall of 1917, when Governor
Whitman unsuccessfully tried to have
George W. Perkins confirmed by the
Senate as State Food Commissioner.
Mr. Moss asked him if he recalled the
debates on the question in the Senate,
and Mr. Whitman said he remembered
there were some debates.
"Do you remeraber, or did you hear,
of Senator Henry M. Sage standing up
there in the Senate on the second day
of October and objecting to ths secret
uae of money in connection with that
candldacy?" asked Mr. Moss.
"Not at all, no," replied the witnesa.
Then he asked: "Tne secret use of
money in connection with Mr. Per
klns's campaign?"
"In connection with the movement
to have the Senate confirm Mr. Per?
kins," explained Mr. Moss.
"I never heard of such a thing," was
the reply.
"Did you know of the statement
made in open debate by Senator Sage
of the use of money to buy people for
Mr. Perkins?"
Objects to Question
Mr. Whitman looked at Chairman
Burlingame, and said he objected to
the question.
Chairman Burlingame asked Mr.
Moss to read into the record the of
flcial minutes of the Senate. Mr. Moss
said he did not have them.
"I have some extracts from it and
what I was reading was the use of
money to buy people," added Mr. Moss.
Chairman Burllhgamo observed that
?ss^>
%m
A Victory Lost?
h a Victory that is not used.
Pay the Pricq of future Peace?now.
i
Bay Bonds!
Bo*ton
Tho World's Groatost Leather Store*
Now York
London
he was present during the debates and
never heard any such charge. i'heii
Mr. Whitman said:
"There was no such thing called
; to my attention. I do not know that
| he did. I will answer your question
| 'no.' "
! Q. And that, further, he (Senator Sagej
\ did not mean that Mr. Perkins actually
bought anybody, but that he had a
iir&t mortgage on a good many peopie
j by investing in their primary cam
I paigns?
Chairman Burlingame: I do not
think any member of the Senate here
I present, who was a member of that
{ Senate, ever heard any such thing from
: Senator Sagc. The question, though,
j Governor. is, did you hear it?
i A. I did not. This is the first time
I I have heard of it.
"Weil. did you know of any state
| ments that were made in those debates
I on the floor of the Senate to the ef
j feet that unusual efforts had been
; made by Governor Whitman and Chair
1 man Glynn to corral votes for Per?
kins?" asked Mr. Moss.
"I object to the question, Your
Honor," said the witness.
"Did you hear anything of the kind,
Governor? Did you hear any debate
in the Senate?" put in Chairman Bur?
lingame.
"I did not," was the answer.
Then Mr. Moss camo down to8 the
alleged Marshall incident. The first
question, if the witness knew Senator
Marshall, was answered rcadijy. But
when Mr. Moss asked him if he had
a conversation with Senator Marshall
conoerning the Perkins nomination Mr.
Whitman objected to answering.
"Yea, objection sustained, unless you
prove that such a conversation was
held," said Chairman Burlingame.
"I want to prove it out of the mouth
of a witness," said Mr. Moss. "Here
is my witness."
"What do you claim, Mr. Moss?"
asked the chairman.
"I claim this?if I may state in ad
vance of my cross-examination, which
I do not think is fair, but"
"It is not a. cross-examination at
all!" exclaimed the witness, jumping
to his feet.
Thc Answer Is "No"
"I propose to show from this wit?
ness," continued Mr. Moss.
"Your Honor, I object" shouted the
ex-Governor.
"I propose to ask questions of this
witness,' went on Mr. Moss, "to the
point of whether he did not propose to
Senator Marshall that if Marshall
would vote for Perkins Marshall's cam?
paign for Senator would be financed."
"I will answer that question. No."
"Now, Mr. Moss, doesn't that an?
swer you fully?" asked Senator Bur?
lingame.
"No, I am not bound in this examina
tion by a mere dehial of the witness,"
Mr. Moss replied. "I have a right to
test him further."
"Weil, your Honor. I object to anv
further questioning about the conduct
of the Governor of the State of New
lork," said the former Governor.
"Go ahead, Mr. Moss; ask your ques?
tion and let us see what it is," said
Chairman BurlinEamc.
Committee Asks Moss
To Susfain Charges
1 Q. Did not Senator Marshall say
that his constituents were opposed to
the confirmation of Mr. Perkins, and
didn't you suggest that if he would
vote ror Mr. Perkins he would receive
a contribution for his campaign suffi
cient to overcome any opposition on
that account ?
A. No, sir.
Chairman Burlingame snid that as a
matter of good faith the committee
would expect Mr. Moss to sustain a
charge such as was embodied in his
questions, adding that, although this
was not in accordance with the rules of
evidence, the committee wanted the
neople of the state to know the situa?
tion.
"There are at least two other mat?
ters similar to this one," answered Mr.
Moss, "and you are attempting to put
the burden upon the side that I repre?
sent of proving these things against a
denial. It seems to me it is not a
proper thing."
Mr. Whitman jumped from his chair
and, addressing Senator Burlingame.
declared that the questions were highly
improper.
"Mr. Perkins," continued the witness,
'is n man of high character, of integ
rity, of honesty, who has devoted his
life during the last years to public
good, and during the last nionths on
the other side of thc ocean. To drag
in his name under the3e circumstances
is an outrageous thing."
The President pro tem. of the Senate,
J. Henry Walters, who was present,
said that Mr. Moss had made the in
sinuation for publicity purposes. This
led to a general row, which ended with
the committee directing that the rec
ords of the Senate be produced.
Then Mr. Moss started to cross-ex
amine the former Governor regarding
talks he had with former Senator Will
iam H. Hill, now a member of the
House of Representatives, regarding
tho Hill-Wheeler local option bill. This
was objected to by the witness, and
tbe chair sustained him.
A Pardon and a Vote
Mr. Moss then took up the Cotillo
incident.
Q. Governor, while the Perkins con?
firmation was pending, did you have a
conversation with a Senator regarding
the pardon of a man who was in pris
on? A. I presume I may have had a
dozen such conversations, I don't know.
I don't remember what you mean. If
you will ask the question directly I will
try to answer it.
Q. Di4 you to any Senator say you
would pardon a man who was in prison
if ho would vote for the confirmation
of Perkins?
Again Governor Whitman jumped
angrily from the witness chair, crying:
"I object to that question as an in
sult Of course I did not."
"Governor," said Chairman Burlin?
game, "answer the question, and then
I will let you etate anything further
you wish conceming the matter."
"I object to this whole line of ques?
tioning!" exclaimed Mr. Whitman, his
face nushed and hls eyes glaring at his
relentless inquisitor. "I pardon a man
'or a vote? Is that what you mean?"
"Jnat ia what I said." said Mr. Moss,
,i .80Ite8t tones, and smiling.
"\ did not!" anapped the witness.
He denied it," observed the chair.
Can you in any way prove it?"
"I will talk about that later," an
awered Mr. Mobs.
"Let ua talk about it now," said the i
chair. !
"I say I have a reason for asking!
that question and I will talk about itj
later."'
The former Governor, plainly an-1
gared, shouted:
"I insist that he answer the chair-j
man s question now. Whom do you I
mean?" . J
"Senator Cotillo, Who Ia Here"
Mr. Moss, waving his hand. toward ;
benator Cotillo, who sat just behind!
Chairman Burlingame, said:
"I mean Senator Cotillo, who it
here."
Tho crowd in the chamber, which had
lor a moment. raised such a hubbub j
that it was almost impossible to hear '
*hat was going on, quietod down so j
that a pln could be heard to fall ai
Senator Cotillo rose.
"I think you have misstated your
?m lo?LMr- Moa8'" 8*'d Senator Co?
tillo. Then he said that, in fairness
to himBclf and all eoncerned, he want?
ed to make n statement.
This was shut off temporarily by
^nairman Burlingame dcclarinp; a re
ceas to enablc the commitW to co
into cxacutiv* ansion. It wai held tn
the open, the Senatora carrying on
their conference in subdued tones.
When they reconvenod in public it
was to declare a rccess for luncheon.
After recess Mr. Moss first took up
the alleged Hill-Whitman interview.
concerning which he had unsuccess
fully tried to examine Mr. Whitman
during the forenoon.
"At the time the Hi]l-Wheeler bill
! was pendinsr in the Legislature did vou
; issue a public statonient, which was
I published in 'The Kniekerbocker I'resa,'
reflecting on the activities of Sena?
tors Argehiinger, Waltors, Slater and
Wicks, mentioning them by nanie in
your public stateinent and charging
them with subserviency to tho liquor
interest3 and with lack of fidelity to
Republican intcrests':"
! Mr. Whitman, instead of answering
j jooked at Chairman Burlingame. The
latter finally ruled that the question
was not pertinent.
Then Mr. Moss again asked the wit?
ness questions based on the testimony
of Mr. Quackenbush, Harry B. Weath
erwax, president of the New York State.
Association of Street Railwavs. and
Joseph K. Choatc, chairman "of the
Increased Rates Committee of that
organization. These three witnesses
have sworn that Governor Whitman
had promised to lend his support to
the Pratt increased rates bill during
his last year as Governor and later
"double-crossed" them.
Mr. Whitman answered at great
longth, denying that he had made any
such promise, saying he merely told
them that if the Legislature passed
the measure he would receive it with
"an open mind" and give it serious con
sideration.
He was next asked about his $10,000
retainer from the Interborough. He
said he expected his firm might be
called upon to go to Albany before the
committees on the Carson-Martin bill.
"Was Perfectly Proper"
Mr. Moss, having in mind the vig- '
orous denials of the witness that he I
was retained to do any lobbying, and
had so stipulated in a conversation !
with Mr. Shonts;, asked him:
"Wouldn't that be an effort to in
fluence legislation?" I
I Mr. Whitman insisted that appearing j
before a legislative committee to argue
the morita of a bill was perfectly :
proner.
"Hadn't there been a complete hear- j
| ing at which the argument of Governor j
! Hughes was presentcd?" asked Mr.'
? Moss.
! "And it was extremely complete and
conv:neing," was the answer.
Q.?What did you expect to do in np
; pearing before any committees with ref
erenco to this bill? A.?r did not ex-:
; pect to appear before any committees.
: v/hat I stated was we were ready to
I perform any service that they asked us
I tot perform.
! Q.?Well, if you were not to do any
' thing whatever to influence legislation,
? why did you ask for the names of the
members of the Senate who appoarod to
I be opposed to that bill? A.?I did not
: ask for them.
; Mr." Mosa then asked the witness con- '
; cerning his talk with Mr. Quackenbush :
I on March 28.
Talked About the Names
Q.--Did you know that Mr. Quacken-j
! bush testified that you did ask for them? <
i A. -We talked about the names.
| Q.--I ask you, did you know that Mr.' I
| Quackenbush testified that you asked I
for them? A.?I did not ask for them.
I informed Mr. Shonts in the first in
I stance in talking about that
j Q.?If Mr. Quackenbush so testified,
! do you say that he is mistaken. A.?-I
; say he is mistaken in his recollection.
Q.?-Well, you did leave Mr. Quack
: cnbush with a eleur understandisg that
you expected to discuss this Carson
: Martin measure with Senator Thomp
! son, didn't you? A.?I said that I
expected to see him and that I would
talk over tho bill with him, yes.
Q.? But, Governor, did you not con
sciously and intentionally,: when you
testified before, leave this committee
in a position to believe that at the
time you had the conversation with
Senator Thompson you had no rela
tion with the Iiiterborough of client
; and attorney? A.-That is absolutely
j talse.
j Q.?Did you apprise the committee
I ?r attemPt t0 apprise tho committee
of the fact that the agreement of at?
torney and client had been reached
I between you and the Interborough
Company before Senator Thompson
called on you? A.?I don't recall. The
question was not asked.
Ex-Governor Whitman, after a few
.more questions of a like nature, to
whicr. he objected and was sustained by
the chair, was excused.
Cotillo Takes Stand
To Tell All About It
Then Senator Cotillo took the stand.
He was examined by Assistant Attor?
ney General Jerome L. Cheney, counsel
to the committee.
Answering Mr. Cheney, he said that
he had not talked with Governor Whit?
man regarding the Perkins renomina
tion.
"With whom did you have that con?
versation?" asked Mr. Moss.
Chairman Burlingame directed the,
witness not to answer.
"J- a?k? did you have a conversation i
with tho Governor's secretary. in the I
Governor's room?" askod Mr. Moss. '
No, unless the Governor was there," i
said Chairman Burlingame.
Mr. Whitman, who was standing near
Senator Cotillo, said he would be glad
to hear what the Senator had to tell.
Mr. Moss put questions to draw out tho
story, but Chairman Burlingame over
ruled them.
When the argument had gone on for
several minutes, Senator Cotillo, with
the exaggeration of eesture peculiar to
the Latin races, declared that as a mat?
ter of personal privilege he should be
permitted to tell the story. This was
granted.
Senator Cotillo's Statement
?rele ,'-9 what Senal?r Cotillo said:
I beheve we had a summer session,
tn extraordinary session of the Legis?
lature for the purpose?the War Com?
mittee was appointed, and I desire to
be corrected if I am not right?to in
vestigate and frame legislation for the
purpoae of aiding in some way the
food conditions of the State of New
lork. I'was a member of the War
Committee, and we finally drafted legis?
lation, after having hearings. I do not
know whether there was some trouble
between Senator Brown and Governor
Whitman as to who were. to be the
commissionors. During that time I had
an appllcation for the pardon of a cer?
tain doctor in The Bronx."
"Senator. was it a pardon or an ap
plication for restoration to citizen
ship?" interrupted Mr. Whitman.
I think it was a restoration. I am i
going to bring out what kind of par-'
don it was.' This man had served five I
or six years and was out about six '
months, and ho wanted to be restored I
to citlzenahip. I had the application '
pending before the Governor, and in
the meanwhile the inamo of Mr. Perkins I
was submitted to be one of the food !
commiHsicners. There was quite some :
trouble about conlirming Mr. Perkins.
Strong for Perkins
"The rumor about the chamber '
seemed to bo that the Governor was
yery strong for Mr. Perkins, and, need
less to say, protty nearly everybody
as 1b the cuetom in the Legislature'
wsh diseusaing whether Mr. Perkins
was to be appointed. I was againat
the conflrmatlon of Mr. Perkins. But
before a vote?I believe there were
one or two votes on the proposition
before tho second vote was taken, I
happened to meet Mr. Orr, secretary
to the Governor. I think I met him
outside the Senate lobby. Whether I
had oooaaion to go to hia room on thr
ccoond floor. I do not rtmember, bul
t know I camc upsiairs from the sec?
ond floor ?md in the course of con
versatibp Billy Orr?we call him
Billy, those of us who know him?
sa:d: You are a good fellow, why don't
you help the Governor? I said 'On
what?' He said 'I want you to bolo
the Governor on the Porkins confirma"
tion. Give him a vote. It is close.
We need two or three votes. and it
wllj probably mean somothir.g, and,
remember, you have a pardon before
-.he Governor that might help you a
whole Iot.' That is the substance of it.
I said 'Bill, I am very sorry. My
mind is made up cn this proposit^pn.
The records show that Mr.- Peririns's
conduct in the factory investigation
bad been such that I will not vote for
Mr. Perkins, and I do not care whether
I get my pardon through or not.
Another Talk With Orr
"That is all the conversation T ever
had with Mr. Orr. It came to a vote,
and I believe Mr. Perkins's r.omir.ation
was defeated by two or three votes.
After that vote, I don't know whether
it was the first or the second time, I
beheye Mr. Orr said to me again, once
or twice, 'Can't you see your way clear
to vote for him?' I said 'I cannot.'
He said, 'Weil, you have got a lot to
gain and nothing to lose.' I said. 'If
you refer to the pardon, Bill, I don't
care for the pardon. I am here to do
my duty, and I am going to do it ac?
cording to my convictions and serve
my constituents best.' That was the
end of the conversation. We had other
pressure brought to bear, but nothing
definite."
Restoration Granted
After Vote Was Taken
"Senator, did the Governor grant
the restoration?" asked Senator Wal
tcrs.
"Yes."
"After you voted?"
"Yes, after I voted against Mr. Per?
kins."
"Do you know it was the practice
of the Governor to restore everybody
to citizenship after a year, provided
they had lived that year in righteous
ness?"
"No, I did not."
"Senator, do you know I made that
public statement at all hearings, that
if thc defendant had lived a year r.nd
received proper recommendations after
I113 term had expired he would be re
stored?" ask?d ex-Governor Whitman.
"No. I did not."
"Did you ever inform me that Mr.
Orr had stated that if vou* voted for
Mr. Perkins the restoration would be
granted?"
|'No."
"You never asked me or suggested
any support or favors of any kind?"
"No, never in my life?not that I '
know.of."
"And I did not ask you to vote for
Mr. Perkins?"
"Never."
Just as ex-Governor Whitman waa i
about to leave the chamber Senator!
Burlingame said:
"Governor, to get back to the issue, :
have you, since the first time you ap- :
peared before the committee, heard
anythirfg which would lead you to bo- i
lieve that there was a $500,000 slush '
fund in Albany?"
"No, sir, nothing whatevor," was the
roply. "It is abaurd and wicked. Noth- I
ing whatevcr."
Other Witnesses Heard
Other witnesses yesterday included
Mr. Quackenbush and other street rail- :
way men, who told of the expenses in i
the last year and a half incurred by j
the streetcar linea of the state in
Carrying on their propaganda for in-!
creased fares. Nearly $7,000 was spent I
in preparing bulletins and mailing them j
and a little more than $28,000 in coun- '
sel fees. This included the $10,000 fee !
paid ex-Governor Whitman's law firm.
Anthony N. Brady and Charles G. M. \
Thomas, of the Consolidated Gas Com- i
pany, were also recalled. Samuel J. I
Beardsley, counsel to the Consolidated,
during the courae of his examination,
tcstified that he had obtained one ex-!
tension of time for the Thompson I
Committee in 191(5. at the request of
Burke, who, he said, he believed was j
acting for Senator Thompson. He said
that the extension was obtained
through Jesse Brayton- of Utica, a
friend of Thaddeus C. Sweet. Speaker
of the Assembly. Judge Beardsley said
he asked Brayton to request Speaker
Sweet to consent to the extension.
The committee will meet again next
Wednesday.
Hearst Denies He
A s k e cl Governor
To Appoint Anyone
-
i Publisher Assails Smith,
Declaring He Has Never
Been Convinced of the
Executive's Sincerity
The following statement was given
out last night by William Randolph
Hearst and distributed to the local
newspapers by the Xew York City
Xews Association:
"I did not ask Governor Smith to
appoint Mr. Pal'.iser, Mr. Deford or Mr.
Limburg to the judgesbip made vacant
by the esignation of Mr. Shearn.
"I did not ask Governor Smith to
appoint anybody to that position.
"As a matter of fact, I make a prac?
tice of not asking public officials to
make appointments?first, because the
receipt of any favor from public offi?
cials in a way restricts and limits the
privilege of free and honest criticism
which every newspaper should exercise
in the interest of the public; second,
because 1 do not want any appoint?
ments or favors from public officials
other than the performance of their
public pre-eiection pledge3 to support
the mea3ures in the interests of the
people which caused them to receive
the public support and the support of
my newspapers.
"I have been particularly careful
never to nsk any appointment or any
other political favor of Governor Smith,
for I have never been quite convinced
of the sincerity of his professions of
progressive principles. ,
"Ho has always been too colse to
Tammany and too close to certain public
service corporations to make him an
ideal public official from my point of
view.
"I supported him because I felt that
he was better than Whitman, or at least
not as bad as Whitman, and because he
made definite declarations in the nature
of pledges for publication in my news?
papers in favor of public ownership." ,
"The exposure of Whitman as a dis
creditable lobbying agent of the Inter?
borough convinces me that at least I
was right in opposing Whitman. j
"But that does not mean that I must
support any bad appointment that Gov?
ernor Smith may make or condone any
public act of his that might be a repu
diation of his pledges to the. public."
?
N. Y. Lumbermen Indicted
BUFFALO, May 9.?Two additional
indictments were returned to-day by'
the Fedcral Grand Jury against Asa!
K. Silverthorne and his son, Frederick
W. Silverthorne, charging conspiracy
to defraud the government through
false checking of lumber shipments.
Others named in the new indictments
are Anthony W. Brick, seoretary of the
Silverthorne Lumber Company; Walter
II. Toby, vice-president and treasurer;
James M. Smith, of Rcading, Penn.;
Reuben Brost, of Buffalo, and Herbert
J. Clough, of Xew York.
Denies Mackay Held Up
Kight-Hour Day on System
William J. Deegan, secretary of the
Mackay Companies' Postal Telegraph
System, issued a statement yesterday
terming the Postoffice Department's
charge that Mr. Mackay had held up
the inauguration of the eight-hour day
on his system "an absolutely dishon
est and deliberate misrepresentation"
and "quite characteristic of the un
scrupulous type of individuals who are
running the wire administration under
the direction of Postmaster General
Burleson."
Treaty Clause to Try Kaiser
Commended by Mexicans
MEXICO CITY, May '9.?Comment
by the Mexico City press on the terms
of peace communicated to the Germans
at Versailles on Wednesday is confined
to the "Universal," which says, in
part: "The best provision of the
treaty is that for the punishment of
the former Emperor, as proof that no
autocrat can without punishment ruin
a people and cause injuries to human
ity."
Crown Prince Goeg to Worfc
Friedrich Hohenzollern iU,
pointed Pottery Co. Manawr
WASHINGTON. May J? ?The f
German Crown Prince has gon. i !r
the pottery business, accorai'g A ?*
cial dispatches received her? ?? j
from Holland. A new company ilV^
ganizad to use the calcareousJn^ r"
the Island of Wieringen, in th^SciS
Sea, "has named Mr. Frederiek Wni-^
Hohenzollern as the directormana^
It was said he was a large iw*&
the enterprise. ^vestor u
A specially ambitious piece ?1~ j
put out by the new company i, ??/
portrait of the director rnana*!. ??
outmg costume against a backSlJ!!
of church and cottages. The diaSS*"4
said it was reported that the titek J
baen bought for $40,000 for %?,?.t d
tion to Premicr Clemenceau of Fr2c*t
Navy Denies Plans for
Transatlantic Balloon Tri?
Rumors that the navy waa about ?
attempt a transatlantic flight with
hghter-than-air machines were refl
yesterday when it was learned that it
dirigible C-6, which left the naval!kS*
at Cape May. N. J.. at 2:32 ?.? TC
da.yn *** landod at Montauk T0&
i :20 that evening. "l
Lieutenant Robert Donohue ??.
mander of the Montauk Point' B7w
air station, said that no orders ?1
been issued even remotelv indic*H?
the possibility that the C-5 would ?
to cross the ocean. ?
Thc other day we heard
two men arguing over the
respective merits of two
lines of clothing.
They reminded us of thc
man who made a statement
and said he was ready to
swear it was true.
Some one asked him if hc
would bet a dollar on it.
"Weil," he said, "that's
different."
As far as our own line
goes, make all the compari
sons you like.
We know a thing or two
about values ourselves; ate
ready to bet your money
back you can't do better!
Finest quality fabrics.
Highest type of tailoring,
Prices based on actual cost
?a normal trading profit
We L.re our own manufac
turers.
Rogers Peet Company
Broadway Broadwaj
at 13th St "Four at 34th St
Convenient
Broadwaj Corners" Fifth Ave
at Warren at 41at St
aanKaoBiij
3?E30E3HJi ^-"^^^^mi^^
St&cA^enue
K] May Specials in
? WOMEN'S and MISSES' DRESSES and CAPES ?
To Close Out
All Spring Suits
(For Women and Misscs)
At Extreme
Reductions
Serges, Tricotines and Poiret
Twills are the smart fabrics that
went into the making of these
suits and we will offer for im
mediate clearance
2J,.5Q
at
450 Suits
20%
discount
IlltlStrated?A sreart frock suitable
for women and miaiet. In Georgctte
and Foulard combination?fearuring a i from the regular ticketcd prices
new ileeve effect. AUo three othe '
choice models.
Real Value $37.50
24.50
Only the most exciusivc styles
are represented.
Formerly $37.50 to $135.00
No* 30.00 to 108.00
10.00
Illustratcd~b umm' cape of
men? wear serge with an un
u?ual v?l effect in coatraating
shedei of wool T*loor?also ?
unart surplice model bound with
bl*ck silk braid.
Real Value $16.50
10.00
\rnmu