Constitutional Whig. [volume], November 21, 1829, Image 1

About Constitutional Whig. [volume] (Richmond, Va.) 1824-1832

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PLEASANTS, ABBOTT .fc CO.---V 9Ami? M<»HN1N«. NOV~»F" ,, -- -J
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$3r ru« guns rmmoMAL whig « pubiiAimi twice
R week, (Tuesdays and Fridays,) al live dollars ner annum,
payable m advance.
roc.-lJvertul/ig—^i cants u square, or lens, for the first iu
scr-Mrm. and ~/l cents li<r each continuance.
[hki‘>nTKi> koh tiik mcuMONV) vijii:.]
viR-taiyiA cx>y vibrio y.
JJTt. GILES' SPEECU—Concluded.
Tuksd.w, Nov. 10.
H i had now retch'”! n. point in the argument which
ho cou,hl only think of with pain and regret. There
scorned to ln:n to have boon a departu e from that du
*cixtttn which should always prevail in debate,—dVmn
that spirit of affection which should over animate ci
tidena of one. S ate. Ho was about ;o f?4-ly.iu..~oTtH'
l!ting which, had fallen from th ? goal leiii'n ^frion
lVooke. The observations n£. that gcnihunua wvro
«f such a ch i actor, that he could not, with the best
Heelings of his heArt, construe it into any otlier than a
pr)ii«o throat, by moans of the physical power on the
West s de of the in n; r ain, to influence and awe the
c-unparutivc small numbers of white below. The
eontlcmau had not indeed • 1 >tiicd the threat in the
insulting language of ‘war, pestilence, and fatruno ”
Thank Chid there was no such language, and he hoped
vveshould coinp ;rc opinions in -good humor. A'th nigh
the language wu po’it..*, s'ill it was ns repulsive, as
“war, pestilence, an 1 famine." HV would real the*
gentleman’s words: 0
“How fatal, then, will he the t .flf' Cts, diotfid you la1 guil'y of
misrule! You say. to lie sure, ili.it wd ir.- a minority: of the
freeholders, perhaps we nmy h:t: kit look at ttm voles given at
tli3 palls, where the true voice of the |jco;ik: of Vifpnra was
heard; aud it .vill appear, that while ya.t represent ill-1 '.}.Jil of
that people, ire represent IU’,0CJ of then 1 acknowledge that
bo vast an odd * proves one thing, at least: it proves that heroic 1
moral boldness which inspires the gentlemen Who are opposed ■
t;> a new Constitution. It proves that they areas daring anS
H/m, as f tvell know them n be upright and honorable.”
wnat is me meaning oi mi-.. impure nerotc;
boldness not to give whit is now asked! H ‘'would
not press tills argiinoot on any gentleman below the ;
Iiidgu—but would slate the effect ti produced on his*
own mind. H ; was very far from wishing to roeipro !
eate the sp;rit or language of the gentleman. C >J 1
tbrbirl tint, hi should resort to su ') a cxnrrj. The1
whole bent of the wishes ol' his heart was to bring'
about concession. That was his ohj.et. Cut he!
would not disguise the .effects which language like'
this produce upon his mtu<2. lie »v ouid come cut with
the sune h morahle frankness winch the gentleman
from JBrookc had exhibited, and tell him hi* impres
sion. The gentleman ha t called ori us to perform mr
arduous task, to surrender that to which we emu-ei
qntiously think w e have a right. Under these cir
cjqnstauces it was a delimit thing to vie! 1. Our con
victions are linn an I unalterable, and nothing in the
•world can disturb them He sh >uM give his \>rvc
with the sain-’ equanimity as if the gentleman had not
told us there were i02,bUJ whites above the inbun
tains to operate on 230,000 below, hi the moun tune
ho must be permitted to ask of ail wln> reflect, in
what condition wc should bo- the law on our side,
and this threat thrown out against the sat'egua.d, if
we permit the -102.000 to make the law? They would
come down with great force, armed with the Consti
tution, the law, and 102.000 bayonets, anJ cull on us
to give up our property. It is a subject for those who
feel this vast odds, but is it a reason for u$ to give up
that moral power when ttidy tell ns how they mean
to use ii? Gentlemen may he actuated by amiable
motives and philanthropic feelings, but" we must get
rid of fine feeling, and reject imputations when th >v
ojm accompanied by threats. Jc cannot he done. He
presumed that the gentleman had made the remark
undgr a sense ef duty; but such a course would be
likely to produce two cf.'cc.c, u:;d they were les
sons of aduioijliicii to all, as well as to the gentle
man himself, who ho was sure was ass minted with
his fellow citizens in kind feeling, but had not
louked at the consequences. The effect will bo that
the people hei-'W the Itidg-j will always exhibit enough
of moral bolducos and firm devotion to meet 'he occa
sion—be what it may. Another effect will be that you
vyill compel the people to asc utaiu even against tiicir
own consent, the full force of onr physical and li.-cu
energies. Thus we shall see one part of the State
nrrayed against the other, not in a conflict of reason
but of physical against physical power.
The reflections which arose from this view compel
led hirn to notice some remarks of the gentleman
from Loudoun. That gentleman had admonished
against the clanger of separation. His admonition
was jierfectly appropriate, wise, judicious and proper
Wc should guard against such an evil which
was strongly presented to us by this array of
force against foice. It was the duty of the Conven
tion to prevent such an evil. When wc make cum
ptuisons of that kind there is danger. The danger
is erreater than may be apprehended, unless wo can
command our passions and lead our discussions t.o har
monious results. The moment, the idea was support
ed by the gentleman from Loudoun, and had entered
his own mind, it extended itself into a thousand ra
mifications which he felt it impossible to trace. More
coirsequenccs would result tha« we can see at once.
Can any gentleman believe that the separation of
Virginia would stop there? Any one who thought so
hid not devoted much reflection on the subject- The
separation of Virginia, will lead to the separation of
the United States, come when jt will. Have we no
awful indications of that, here and out of floors'1—
\yhnt is going oil tnrougn uie country in consequence
erf our debates? A spirit lias When excited in the
country, which has led to the resignation of one dis
tinguished member of tbe Convention. Ho saw by
the papers that the people were taking the business
in their own bands—bo saw a single vote calling for
the instructions ttr the most distinguished citizoa in
Virginia. Would not gentlemen see in this, the pre
paration of a line of demarcation? Supp', e the people
am arrayed against each o’her, be the time when it
will, let gentlemen reflect on the awful condition to
which we are approaching. Who is not prepared to
see this state of things? Passions are exciteJ in the
Country, and will be raised to greater excess. The
people suppose there is an aberration in a single vote,
and a gentleman abandons bis scat—Under these cir
atances, he asked gentleman were they not prepared
to make some concession? If ever by our course
there should he a division of the State—it \vrll not
stop there, but will extend to the United States. As
to the force held up in tcrrvrem he would say that
when fc.jcli awful citcmastances shall arrive, the des
tinies of this country will not be settled by tlm phy
eyc.il force of the United Slates alone. He had not
thought much who was not satisfied that tho phy si
cal force of the commercial nations of Europe would
settle the destinies of this country. It w is tru~ fur
ther, that tin great and sp’endid city of New York,
would have more to dread in such a contingency than
Richmond Have gentleman looked at these threats
. —have they contemplated the possibility of the dos
Xlies of the United States, being decided by a foreign
power, and thou thought of the douceurs they have
to offer? If the people of Virginia could be so wild,
so foolish as to rush forward to a separation of the
State, what douceurs have the transmonntain pe pie
to offer for the physical force of the commercial nu
tion* of Europe? Nothing—literally nothing. Whilst
•ye, on the East side of the mountains, have the most
. \tractive and nfluencial dnneeur that could possibly
offered:—Commerce—the most valuable and *>e
jt. •jive in the world. Perhaps benefits to our
..j os, instead of sacrifices. He should deprecate
* : c c.VdU as yidcl* tu» tty Vat ho
".IS not speaking id any thing whn h he. miser*
h1:!o an 1 feeble as he was, could prevent. It
would not bo •». i tiia power of the Convention
of the Suite, nor even of the United States, to pre
vent it. Gentlemen doubted if a division of the
►S'Hie could he effected without the consent of Con
gress. He knew that there was a clause in the Con
stitution to prohibit th? separation of a State, but
when iorce is once brought into action, force bids de
fiance to law. When this is the case, our relation?
ore changed, and we must look to the effect offeree,
i he question would be changed, and he would ask
any gentleman licto, how tho general government
could prevent such a catastrophe.and whether it could ,
he prevented by n ‘ Tariff,’’ or «my physical force? -
•The «inly moans eftho. government would be perfect
ly feeble and idle. Ho would roeur to tho- remark
which l.e had hero-ajl*re iugiL:. Unit the destinies of,
th > cmciiry would not be settled by the physical '
three of the country, if you separate either of the!
States esjioc>ady Virginia. He looked at the consa
queuees with us much awe and regret as any one.1
Ho could not shut his eves to what was passim* I
around him. There are excitements enough already i
in the country. The General Government lias at- :
forded excitement enough by the measures which he ;
had already glanced at. He he had seep some e!o*»'
quent views, said lobe written hv a gentleman from '
Boston, on tho separation of Virginia, and of the so- j
paratiou of tho Union, which he had shown would be
the u* eo-aary consequence. Ho hadboen induced to
make 'l.ese remarks from suggest* ons of h>‘ own
mind, all hough he thought they would be producuie
oi n<> eft. c’. These suggestions tire to bring ab >ui
conciliation among ourselves. L— us quiet The dis
sensions her**., 'flier e was one rule worthy ofad.-n
ti.»n, up i it whs this, ;hut wu should approach unani
mi:y in something—that we should calmly, coolly,
and confidentially consult, and settle what should lie
done, and how far we should in* willing ou both sides
to go. He would warn gupilemca against the effect
ot currying any question by a lean majority. There
was nothing ;o be gained by it. Xo harmony could
bo expected in the country, wlieti they see that we
have no couti lence in our own measures. Such
would lie the state of things, and such gen
may uriwvu hi m* iiu> uxou an:i unalterable
effects of tho causes he hud mea wned. He would
ask no more from jfMitkmen than lie was disj a e<l
IthujoU lo yield. IJj wisUcJ Lj ascertain what pruu
os-ition would carry wi:h it the ^reateot majority.
Me would agree to amendments'which he did not ful
ly approve, it the other side wouM agree to that
which they di i not approve for the sako'of harmonv.
It they would ta'ko any proposition which they were
not (!».-;io-eil to agree to he world agree tu others os
lar Hn iiLa conscience would permit him. lie whs dcsi
:ous hat they should agree upon such propositions, as
would command a great majority—nothing more.
There was one impression on his mind: small chan
ges and such as are unanimously made never can pro
duce the division of a State. (l.-eal changes, and
unequal balai.ee of opinion, are the surest roads to
come at that end. He felt himself unlit to do more
than to throw out these ideas. He had no specific
proposit on to offer. He invited other gentlemen to
make proposition?: he was desirous that they should
proceed in this spiiit of compromise, and that they
should guard against loan majorities—because from
the triumph of friends over friends, it was impossible !
that any good could result
I lo would detain rim Co.n mVe with or.lv two or three reflec- •
t:on-. It must occur to ail, that the task of pulling down in ail i
en-y one. Kvrry body with a trowel in his hand, can take !
down a magnificent .structure. Bui it requires thought, care,
study and science, to build up one which shall be durable!
useful and ornamental. Such a struct uk: is now before u<!
and lie feared ilia! every man has a trowel in his hand to take
down a brji-.k. He hoped otherwise, and should continue so to
hope mud dm Iasi llow would u be to be mere dikipidamrs, *
to teal down all which God in Iris mercy has srnl us, and set up
nothing? On the other side, how honorable it would be. to
contiibiile inf.e to sustain the glorious institutions we have
received from our forefathers Suppose we do little, we shall!
have done all we could conscientiously.do, and may return
hqpie satisfied. Gentlemen have asked, what is to uu thu effect i
of doing nothing?—What would hn the effect? It would be a 1
groat dual better than doing mischief But no one calculates
on doing nothing. All are disposed to do somethin*1: and *.\e
siiail do a great deal if wc do not tear down. WcTou'dit to
unite and do all we all can do If we find nothing to do, we
can tell our constituents that we found the Constitution better :
than we ex (rented — that we discovered some bad scions—that
wo applied the priming knife, and cut them off, and put in their
places grafts which w ill pioducc <yn:l fruits. Me was satisfied
wc could not so well discharge our consciences in any other.
way
Permit him to make another rc.uark Our forefathers gave
us this blessing. They framed this Constitution under the stone
feelings of zeal, and amidst the same honest differences which
exist now. But they succeeded by compromising, and sacufi
cing their party feeling on the altar of patriotism and virtue
We arc called on to examine their work. Let us recollect and
imitate their exalted course.
Virginia was never ungrateful She never w in be ungrateful
while she is Virginia. A slain may be cast on her moral Tu aulv, i
hut she is incapable of ingratitude. We have suffered our god
lihe ancestors to sleeji in oblivion. The great day in liie j>oliti-;
cal world, when liberty first burst forth from the cloud under
which she had been so long concealed, and shed her rays on a
benighted word—that day, theZbth of June, had been forgotten,
and wc ha've been accustomed to transfer to the 4tb of July the
honors due to that auspicious day when freedom first shone !
forth upon us. Our fathers rest in oblivion. Instead of tearing
down the structure (hey have raised—instead of letting them
sleej) in oblivion, let us call them from the tomb, and give them
the highest posthumous praise which man can bestow They
deserve all we can give. By way of testifying the veneration
in which we hold their memories, let ns fill the vacant niches
with their names—let us fill all the Capitol with their names,
for they are sufficiently numcious—let us take them from obli
vion and place them where they will he seen by Virginia, ami
by ttic world, to laitfsl posterity.
[ « invili- wnun WC pUL>HSIU*0 Uie 151 J»?iri O! < I(I7.
Giles’ speech, that it ha<! been revised bv him, it is due to Gov.
(i io state, that he has not had an opportunity of revising his 2<l
day’s speech, urldcii we conclude above.]
On motion of .Mr. CifAPMA.v Johnson, the Committee then
lose, and reported progress.
'i'iie Convention then adjourned till to-morrow at 11 o'clock.
Tuesday, Nov. 17.
Mr JIsincEH moved that the daily hour to which
the Convention should stand adjourned,be 10 o’clock.
He referred to the course of the Federal Convention,
which sat from ten till four during the last month of
the session. The mot loti,"alter com« lijw words from
Mr Stan a kd against it, and Mr Doddridge in its
favor, was carried in the affirmative—Ayes 41, noes
40, the President having given Ins casting volo in
favor of the motion.
The Convention then resolved itself into Commit
tee of the Whole, Mr. Powku, in tlie Chair.
Mr. Scotr then rose to address the Committee—
► He said lie did not rise to go into a new discussion,
lie did not suppose that anything he could say would
have much eft’-ct; much less after the protracted dis
cussion which had taken place, lie had seen, with
regret, the amendments of the gentlemen on his side
of the question, cnrried by a small majority. It ap
petfred to hitn that such a majority could not dictate
to such a minority, especially on a subject of such •
great importance At an early period of the inquiry j
it appeared to him to he a subject involving such deepi
ami opposing interests, that he had believed it would!
be the more wise course, if the party to which lie be
longed were even the stronger, to adopt some mea
sure of compromise. On more occasions than one Im
had manifested the sincerity with which lie entertain
ed these opinions, and a Though he had heretofore
been discouraged by the wont of success, he was noi
disposed to cease from a renewal of them. He thought
it was as much the duty of th j majority as of the mi
nority to think sftriou^y before they finally decided,
whether it would not be better to adopt the course
which he intended to propose before he sat down,
which was to pass over this resolution for the present,
and tafco 'Jp Uxu tleAt fubjec’.. Tku g-u‘lo:nao from
“a., ? vcn a *>nu‘\vliat 'bfle.-om meaning to
j. . lerT,s. of fie resolution, from what had been bc
i«ro received; and it was possible that some rrontlc
lai n who had opposed the resolution in its original
onn would be willing to take it with the modifier
.oilk »‘i f,:u 1^n1tlpnJan suggested. He would
*, ,to ' ,,lla the character of that modification
and to iinderstflftd Us limits. lie would therefore
move that the Convention passover this resolution,
and proceed to the consideration of the next subject.
Mr. AlERCtH said that the object of the go tinman
trom l- auqiucr vvoald be obtained without nay nm
'mn. It was usui 1 whe.: no further propositions ot*
amendment were offered, to puss over the subnet
winch nail boon under consideration. Hc should” he
sorrj’ wer« such a coarse now to he taken under the
be.ict that the rcsoln'bin should he again taken up, at
aluture day, ter the purpo o of again movin- ambnd
ment.-, to it, ns we have already been engaged on this
single resolution more than three . eeks. As to the
majority, wlmt security hiul they, what could they
have, il even any compromise wero proposed, that it 1
wo'iid meet the wishes of a majority?. Divination
would only enable the gemh-mnn to furoteH the re- '
suit. As far ns he could judge from what he had 1
already se< n, no compromise, which could be otic ted, !
would be able to c*:um»jid the acquiescence of a i
majority.
The gen'1. >i nan from Fauquier hail r- for red to the 1
smallness oft he majority. lie referred that geuUeman t
io the sm.ftlness ot th® majority in Congress by which
tlie (.eelnrt.tion ot war was adopted. For some time, ■
it*was believed that there would 1 * no majority at
nJ; and if some gentlemen who had ouVriaineri scru
plcsfiad not surrendered uiern, and changed thqjr
coiiicp, there would have been no minority. As it
was there was a.-mjonty of only two. On the qe.es
tion of the renewal of ihe Charier of the Bank ot
t.ie U States, ut u time when it was deemed of the
highest importance to re>t>«re specie payments, the
.Semite refused to renew the charter by only the cast
ing vote of the Vice President, himself not a member
ot toe Semite, but pjcijiriiiig in his wfllciaJ charnctej. ^
f he f d« ml Convertion, was adopted by a majority
ot only nine, lie riight refer to o her instances in
which questions of groat importance hail been settled
- nu ii'uimueu ure commit lee 4
tliat they worn now only engaged on incipient ru<’a- j
sores. forthepnrpos'.Qf pr *pe ring a convention which I
was to ho submitted to the people; it was therefore of]
secondary importance what v. as the majority hero, i
i UiC mccisurcsio l>o taken up in their order j
which are in some dgree, dcpo::dait ihis-rihfi
construct ion ol the iafiuiU*, (lie power of lijo Courts, 1
the election and tenure of the Judges. IIj did not’}
sec.how the majority could he charged as uncompro- .
n.isii g. when they know not what, compromise gen-.
tinmen on the other side were disposed to offer; and.
know no more the otlr*r side want com prom 1st: could
he offered, which cudd carry with it a majority. ■
Other propositions ore to he made, 6l perhaps ;hev who
are the majority nun-, may be less fortunate hereafter,
lao in,4. 11 \or keen lung in a majority, lie expres-4
sud tiie hope that we should not pass this subioct*
with ait understanding that it should he kept open. I
p«tlioi»£g:i he knew that it would be open. It was]
ius wisii that the Committee sliojild pagu on 10 the 1
next resolution unless u proposition was made to a-!
mend this. If any amendment was desired, he ho- <
pad gentleman would propose it. It must be known]
to many gentlemen here that it is not tire practice to •
tiikc tuc vote ift Committee on the original propo-i
ration. . I'he cause is, if n<> n.mo..dirici>tsrare agreed
lo. to rise and report the subject without amendment.
The whole merits are then brought before the House.
Mr. Dodphiuck said he wished to notice a re
mark w hich fidi from the gentleman from Ihiuquier.
(.Mr. bc.ott.) in reference to a resolution of the gen
tleman from Augusta (.Mr. C. Johnson). The gen {
tinman from Augusta had been understood to say that i
h'.s own .'4*..c.*>.ion, \y uatever the words of the reso- i
kitton reporteti t»j tu*i 100.04:1. w-oiiiuntlii: inigiit be 1
supposeu to import, to move a modification of]
t..c pl.rxso x l.re population, so os to confine it tn ]
wnat ho terme,!*? ua.’ijirjl voters. It was further said j
that the gentlotnan from Augusta had intimated his}
belief that such was the intention of the mover of I
the original preposition in the Legislative Commit
tee. Mr. D. slid he was the mover of the resolu- '
tion in the Scleit Committee, and such was not save-1
ly his intention, and if such was the intention of the 1
Select Committee, he could only suy that it was en- 1
tirely unknown to him. He was for the basis oft
white populaliffr as the element of representation;]
idler that was disposed of another question would}
arise'ns to the fit;lit of suffrage; and then as to the
persons to uiiidi tho new cunsliluiioa shouid’bc sub
ioitied for opprlval.
The gent,r>n*n from Fauquier had nskrd whether
so email a rnaj'xity would endeavor to coerce or con
troul the iniuonty. Ila knew the majority here whs
small, but lie lad said, in an earlier stage of the de
bate, what wm the ,majority in the country which !
would he representf.'j by this majority, nnd the result
confirmQd liiss^te" r it. Small ns the majority is
heie, if represeats a large majority of the people.
He had no objection to leave a door oj>en for compro
mise, by proceeding to the next subject before ‘the
Committee.
mr. ocott oxpiauieu. ne mo not intend to
charge »n uncompromising disposition to the majority.
His remark was niit open to such construction. The
gentleman from Loudon, however, had said that, he
could not listen tc compromise, because divination
only could enable any one to say what compromise
would be agreed to by a majority. As no man is gif
ted with the powers of dcvinatiou, such an opinion
must ever be fatal to measures of compromise, if
compromise was not to be listened to, lest it should
not be agreeable to a majority.
Mr. Mruccb paid In understood the gentleman
as charging the majority with an uncompromising
spirit.
iMr. Scott snid he had no such purpose. The gen
tleman was averse to giving au opportunity to com
promise, not from an uncompromising spirit, but. be
cause he had not the power of divination. In that
case, i here never could be a comproijiisc. because no
mortal possesses the power of riivinatmn, therefore
at no time can lie Le certain. He had another re
mark to make to the gentleman from Brooke. He
had understood that gentleman to say, that although
the majority here was small it represents a large urn
jority of the white population. However that°nii<rht
be, lie would tell the gentleman from Brooke that He
minority here represent a large majority of the free
holders divided by the Blue Ridge as 3 to-4. The
minority represent the tax payers ofVirginia, all those
who contribute a cent to the public revenue; and the
tax payers bear the same proportion to the freeholders
H3 3000 to 4,200. As far as the free holders and tax pay- 1
ers are concerned, the minority therefore represent ai
large majority.
Mr. MtHCKiisaid ho did understand that the mi
nority would agree to no compromise. It was perti
nent to soy he did not know whether any compromise
would be agreeable to a majority, on the principle
tliut numbers Constitute the basis. Another remark he
desired to make. The gentleman from Fauquier had
a different calculation of figures from that which lie
had. The gentleman represents the West of the
Blue Ridge as a minority of the freholders and tax
payers. If he will add to the Western counties, those
counties below the Blue Ilidge, whose representa
tives vote with the West, he will then chew that the
majority in this House represent a majority of the
; tax uayers.
; i of thu yrocecs Iw ru.'urrod U> tho tables wh'.jbhad
been presc-n.od by the Auditor if the nnmbrt »f ror
isrsrvm? ury *'»«**** ^
rSL ni J®i>U,?tiori "byVo bdow tho
th k that it is noarlv the same ai
W-rs above and below the iWh?
Hnl’i'U 10 " *’cr*nr'* tisrml !hr 1s.xsa YVost of
tlK.IllucKn.gr, who own 35 acres each hears t>,,>
SThW’??* nui» •«*»»•»tfc£«£.«&
,'r.bUe PopuInliuTi above « lu that of tXQ white lq
pulat.on bcfow the Kidge. TJin numhor af pi^s
mthe v.ho.y state charged with land tax is 93,500;
rCVh fe r,;».'u'«\'Vc-st vi t!,e “!»« Ki«1ge -5,000.
Deduct from tho 93,000 a g.vax number of puwSw
on «horn land tax 13 charged in the West, but who
.., c b-Tow i.»o Blue Rjdge, .and the nroporticu wUi
sciTha n"mb" •nw»«7&S*\K!}
aonx?)" T°'J 'VUv- lRj:r:-, on moveable property ate
S nn;fr U‘-;r ^ tU° WibLJ
e n * and 55,000 Will remain bylow tho moon.
i rm mbCr Vi0 wWte population West of
f.h .according to tho Census of ir.39
as -jjO.OOO. It wo take the census of lC3i», the
n[^cnt,** mucii more unansiveruhlc. The
nornborot the white papula-ion West, to the number
® ful" foimhuon was in 1030, in the ratio of 35
t?'*’:’’ ,a^e -Ao ratio of taxation us be hod just
shewn tr, and the ratio would by as 53 to -it). c<\n
Uetrrr. ,e0J|1C(1 argue under a delusion when they
tin* Wciilr c^cu'a',1'!Jrd 1B 00 u hUd population in
_„*Vf ’-b.c ilAanimity of the people below, «ad the
numoer of paeons; tho number ui* persons listed in
5^’«ChaW Witb !:u'd tfX.islhe measure
of ratio Hum add the votes below the mountain.
u-hn W t°?n W,“ch h^rcprtsumted, tbpre were but y
who voted agr.unst n Convention out of900. In Fair-,
.ox the votes W favor of the Convention are 3 to
‘. 1 lnm-p Y\ iJJiain they wure 2 to 1 These
oun^Vr T-nt,dc1 l° lbe '*>*• «*■* tK
f?, « 1 Albemarle, part of Pittsylvania and Bed
in H VVUi !l,n’ ft 1:irsc majority of tax payers
in favor <d t!ie resolution. ” '
Sf r. >STA.v.vtu> made on onuuirv 1* rb>-> f-Kiir .
thnncguluritvof tho debate. ‘ wtfl
Tl.« ii * • 1 . . .. . .
uic donate hart certainlv rv
aSTfCCptll,lyr0 hi,m’ b(,y«od the bounds which
a tlna observance .of order Wouid justify.
enter i*n.rAN^RD if a- VVUS rcS,Uar °*> one aide to
enter into extraneous topics, it Wouid certainly be nut
imigu,„ ,° c trQni ,he,n. Tho ffL.Ilti;mill from
Loudoun had been nastujtcincd by by eoadmt^ pro
i5JCndd v.ii-.tir :ho\4u!4
tions u...ch coil been just submitted t.» the committee,
and uie deductions which were made from them Were
% Und' ^t0jjd tbe (pieman from Lon
(?,!r*w?erc«r ) to raean the ratio of tax payers
above the L.tte Badge was not different from tho ratio
of tax payers below i he Blue Ridge, i Ic wouid en
trant tnese calcinations by thos .• of tbe gentleman
from Augiiata. lie bad occasion on Katurjay in re
ter;n;g :o tho relative numbers of freeholders to
Scute tha; t.ie proportion of taxes on the laud books
as between the \V ->t and East side oithe Blue Rhine
l"*> eras IO Got.tIeu.j4i ‘ tlioujflit
tl.at property el,atttferl the wfaiwna of tl.o ..,,,4,65.0.
and that the proportion was between 39 raid 10 on
one sole, and 53 on thc other Jie computed that
amonir the names which are down in tho land books of
the West 1 here was at least 1-lu who were non re~
sidents—-tnoy were cither residents in thc East or
non residents. He wonld allow, by making, that de
ductmu the mtio of 33 to 56. lie Would not a Jd to
the Lact the Q.OOO landholders whom he had sub
ducted Inon, , he VVest, although hr* conjectured that
ei cn in Richmond alone there was littldcss than 1(10
people who were land holders in the West. How
far it was eo in other portions of the Eastern country
1,0 cou,d not ,^y* He would however contihe his
arguments to the ratio of 53 to 56. tie had made no
caici.la.ion of ,ns own, but so far as Ids computations
nave went they were founded on those made by the
gOc.uemati from Augusta, who was second to no gon
Uenrnn of the committee in accuracy, and ho would
do!!rw?rhfbcSmtCJnCnt' Vi tbC ^uticmaa
ilr. DopniriDtiis enquired whether the preuent do
hate was in order.
1 lie Cii.hr decided that tin; member from Spott
sylvania had an undoubted right to reply to tire <<-en
Lletnan Irom Loudoun. a
r.Ir. Sr an Ann said, it was not his intention to r*o any
bn t her in... a remarks ho was about to oiler, than to pre
sent u correct ion ofth«* extravagant mistakes whirl; the
gentleman from Loudoun had committed, in the cal
culations he had submitted, and in order to give tins
correction more force, he confronted them with tlij
calculations of the gentleman from Augusta, who was
at toffs: as accurate as thc gentleman from Loudoun,
i he proposition of the gentlepian from Loudoun was
that the raiios of freeholders him ttwi-paverp did not
exceed that o* the white population.
He had the tables of the gentleman from Augusta,
>r-rrH.h apportioned the representation on the suppo
sition ot having 120 members in the House of EK.de
gpit?s. Computing the ratio of white popula'ion in
the two divisions he gives 56 delegates and a fraction
to the West, and 63 and a fraction to the R’a-st_
Computing on the land tax ratio, and making no al
. Persons wno are non-residcnta of the
U cst, he gave 46 and a Iractioq to the West, anil 7.1
anu q fraction to the East. Computing from the pro
perty books, and supposing all the taxes to be paid,
ho gives a proportion between the West and the East
instead of 56 to 63, of 50 to 70. If he was inaccu
rate, the gentleman from Augusta would correct him.
Yet we are told here, without qualification, that an
terminate tn the -same results.
He felt it due to himself, to the country, and to his
constituents, that these statements should not go
abroad unconfronted by those in which accuracy was
more Consulted. 3 *•
Mr. Merck» regretted that lie was obliged to tres
pass on the indulgence of the Committee again, in
order to support the statements he had nm'de, and
whose accuracy had been so much questioned. lie
protested against haying his remarks collated with
those of any other gentleman. He was responsible
for Ilio ourn alarm, and as to Iht; statements of the
gentleman from Augusta, Im -jms the last individual
in the Convention who would require the aid of ano
ther to sustain them. That gentleman has informed
in him a whisper, that his calculations, and il»e ratio
which was referred to, hod been deduced from the
population of 1020. IJe (Mr. H.) Lad repudiated
that estimate, and denounced it ns incorrect, when
he was animadverting on the Auditor’s report —
1 [v then went into a detail to shew its inaccuracy.
He surely would not he hound to abide by the Audi
tor's report, when he had shewn that his calculations
were not entitled to the consideration or weight u u
al!y extended to public and ouiciai documents^
Mr. Etanaro suid that the Auditor's calculations
had nothing to do with the question tn debate
Mr. Mkp.ckr replied, he was willing to allow evc
ry gcnt'einan the liberty of explanation, but if the
member from Spottsylvania had waited, ho would
have found that the papers on which he based his cal
culations were wrong. While he rejected the popu
lation estimate. he admitted the accuracy of the rest
of the 'able. 11° said the ratio ot white populaMon
in 1B20, ought to he rejected. He would take the
ratio of iff JO, which in a former address to
the Committee, he had shewn by a reference to
his own dit-'rict was the more correct statement; hm
fhc would take the ratio of 1621*, it would better
st/stain his position He would however, adopt that
of 1620, and take the white population from it. The
white popularjii fa :lta 'Vest, in pr.i :> :?<*•.
of th- East, was 250 to 053 ihousV.d. r-hieh 'mr.^
the whole population to be 6<JJ t‘.e-uMnd. l!,ini]*r
tM ratio in round numbers, we hiu- the ratio of
t«» 35— He malie an estimate of the luxation ..f
moveable property—hg e,\ti tided ti e qmintith’s << -•
•Iowa on each subject, to the margin. :u.4 ad«l»i..r Vp
the Burn? ot them, a total result pas «-ivon ot C u?pvd
which was a much greater proportion. JPTe won hi
p-aco that pnper on the table far the exfitrlr.ntion
tlic yoiniJiiUcc, und h.c challenged any geijtlpnuin t*j
pro* $ it a inarcmacv*
flr. could not say'whether all tha pereons *,h.o <v,n
an the .and-booli, resided in the \V;-i er cot; mr
cwulil he ted where they resided, *tthough ;:r travrl
, much «3, and perhaps ten times more, Uiron,.h
Uie htote, than the gentleman from &*otti-ylv*nia.ri
i3ut he was wcU aware Hat there were many rCm!e
rneu who .jved tn the West and owned lunds situated
m Other parts of the Stale. Tubing thij cstirrafV.
and deducing the thirty-rune thousand from the nit,.
ty-two thousand we Would have the other proportYm
ot hrty three thousand. He Would now leave thcr*
statement*; on ’lie table, and desired tire invest mm kn
of gentlemen into them. ° *
nftnr‘S,TZnY0,I\ I/Ythis ‘Uscusaion Hie at ten; ion
or the Committee had ln.cn withdrawn, from the me
tion madc by the gentleman from Fauquier, (Sir.
^lajlt.). If .ic wa.< satisfied tliai the views of that ci n
Henian were cornet, and the* the course he i'\T.jn
.mendedwould produce conciliation or ex; edit 10^ in
our ousmess, he would be most willing to co-opeiato
^Vitft hun. But he feared the only effect pf it would
.be t0 Procrastinate the question, and God knows wh. r,
-we would come to a conclusion We had alrcut;,
hiuti six weeks in session; three of which have bur
I consumed iu the discussion of the very question whi- ►*'
it ;s now proposed to pass over. ’'1
! here ituiui:.t'’d that the gentleman PV ud
) corxiuie hiinselt to the question
t • v I -v:iain arcor to prebu t* the ino.
•lion he nTtendcd to submit with a few explnuau i
} remarks; ho p,occeded to .-ay that tlie proportion ,<
! the gentleman from Fauquier would not expedite f ho
r labors ut the Committee. If we aie to leave this
t Titian unsettled, it would be impossible to coti-id.fr
jwiy other in the Legislative report, which inv«dv. .i
\ fi:iaie PfWCipJa He looked to this a* a question
[ 0‘ lor unfortunately so it appeared to be, a: <\
I White tlus is unsettled every other debate mm t U* v«
! rcr.'-ren. e to this question. He took it as obvii •
•Thtu no concussions would now be made. Sum- •
tilts ruestion is submitted to the Convention vuiifio
“fr‘.r:c ***C,VC1U£C ta':ca ,ca **’ “r-“ that it yet.
t.ed. vve Cciml then re-er lwe whole to a select . c».
nu;t‘x» to report, and thus by comparing opimons \\e
jimnld be in. re apt to c. me to a harmonious resu't —
U.* would move, therefore, that the Committ r-•
ami report progress, and he would afterwards in nv.i,
the House that the Committee of,lhb Whole be
, charged from the further consideration of ibis ciu s
-.turn, and that the report be referred to a Select Com
fnitlce. Lot that Committee be composed of !f,<
.members who are known to be un commit L-d. mid u[
’whom the Convention have the greatest comid. u/
•and who, from their weight ar.d experience, woubi
be liltelv to report such a prop. ,*t.on of comproefi i*
:as vuould not be in tV spirit of jauty, but the olfo q
ol winch would be to bring h.umonv into our coin
ci.s. I>y this means tbc difficulty we have e..\v •„
encounter in fixing upon some gr«."urul of com promise
• would bo surmount, d. lie moved that the Lou.-,/,
tee rise and repoit progress.
Mr.-l.Ksoi/ aidiuJ ii H was in order to ilieeti» ;s,»
■question? • " *■
. Tlie Chair replied in the affirmative.
A cor..eraation here took place between 31l nrij
.and 31 r. Fitzutoh when the latter gmulem.-u ,i
his design was that the committee should be dischar
ged troui ull the subject.
1 Mr. Lkigh: Then the motion of the gentleman
was, that the Committee slu.uld rise, report pro'*re
■ and ask to be discharged from the consideration of
J all the subjects referred to it, and that ;Ji be referred
floaao.ect Committee. Was he to understand Mm
I gciitlemun as moving to discharge the Committed
[ iroma/l fIio subjects referred to iif
\ Mr. P. Yes, all.
Mr. Leigh: From the consideration of the rr-n-rfa
ot the L-gislative Committee, and of the KXe lUu
Committee, and of all the propositions submitted
respecting the Judicial department? The Conunit
tee ot he whole was to be discharged from the cor.
Adoration ot each and every other subject, as well
ot the Legislative report.’ Was the CommitteeJm
asked, prepared to adopt n proposition which would
Le in amount a declaration, that every other sub.' t
except the busis of representation, was unworthy of
discussion in the Committee? Was the question of
ithe qualification oi the right ot wiffrago-of the mode
ot electing ihfe governor—of the distribution of the
pouer of appointment—of the depositary in whi
that power should be placed—Were nil the questions
he would ask, unworthy of wspusssiou in a Commit ’
tee or’ the Whole? Was tlv' question as to the Judi
c*;:*: department—whether a spunge shall be applied
to the present Judges—as to their term- .f office,
and how it shall be regulated hereafter_.’wore all
these unworthy of free discussion ? How else, could
they be considered than in a Committee of the
W hole? And v.hat was the purpose of resolving
the House ijtilo committee of tha whole, but to wa
VIIre sunjecisr anri viu it was proposed a» an amcnd
bient to this, to refer those subjects to a select rt in
mittce. For what end were they to be referred to a
select committee? There were a great many gen
tlemen in this body, iu whom lie could repose cmiti
dence on almost every subject, but ho uiwhl Lonc
cuiit-'d of arrogance when he said thut there was put
a nnn inside or outside of this house, on w ha. o au
thority lie would rest fora moment with rpcp... t to
this question. There was no man in this hous -,
yhose opinions, and argumenttie would hot listen
to with the utmost respect ami attrition, mid would
weigh with ns much candor and frankness as he
<Sou!d. But while be would hear and weigh ail tlm
arguments of every gentleman in the Committee. In:
must say without hesitation, that there wasimtoim
man in the house, no, no* in 'he world, on wlswo
authority or opinion he would depend. He did not
mean to coiijmc this to auv man. but he would tet
place implicit confidet,u on this subject, eikiier .11
any man, or any set ofn.cn. When wc come out < r*
lliis select committee—out of the little committer*
i to winch the whole is referred, xhnt l( r,
: webe in? The whole subject will U a.m.n ij n
to discussion as now. For Ins part, he \v uid as
soon it was appugged by the President, is ci.ru n by
ballot, livery subject could he di-cussed in tl’j
House, if the House was preferred to a Committee
of the whole; but only a committee of the whole",
can there be that fi... and free discussion to which
the subject is enti'led. The whdu fine ion of a se
lect commitfc, was to mature schemes. In ihrt
I committee every gentleman has a right to offer wlia*.
ever proposition he thinks proper'. The mover
generally appointed Chairman of the select Comaiit'
teo, and has a majority of the frinds of the moasure
placed on the Commute, and this i« done for fV
plnainest purpose in the world:—that .the person in
pursuit of the object, tuny have the ’| pot unity of’
maturing his plan in the b'.,t pcssiM.- manner bcfoi-j
it come to the home. This wnj the whole, a. \q
nature of a select committee.
B.'f \vc arc to forego that, and prnrre-J v
principle which was never b-forc lu.-rd «.f. kiujI
now. We are t<> ins'itute a committee to r.:| ,t
measures to u*. ns if the commit ten wore to dtco.c,