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Constitutional Whig. [volume] (Richmond, Va.) 1824-1832, January 07, 1830, Image 1

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■»■■■! I II j mi Mg — ■ ’I - ~ - -| 11,^
Vof.. Vf.—IW, im. x
fffrt gaiigtitttttonal saatUg.
fhe Convention.—The Convention yesterday, hav
gone into Committee of tho Whole, went through
ukb the Report of the Bolcct Committee (with the
exception of tho 0d and 4th articles, relating to the
arrangement of representation in the Senate and
Hoase of Delegates which were recommitted to the
Select Committee) after a laborious session of near
sfjt boors. Several, not very vital, amendments wore
made, And various othors were suggested, but kept
ill reserve, fbr the House. Tho proposition of add
‘HJ? *3 more members to tho House of Delegates (in
eTeasiag-it to | 10) nud thus of easing the fitting of
the shoe where it pinches most, it is thought will
g]ve dow vigprr to the entire scltem*; of tho now Con
stitution, and increase the chances of its passage
through the Convention. Sluch dissatisfaction was
tptpreesed from dificrent quarters, particularly from
lliB section south of James River, uoxt uuder the
mountains, at tho apportionment of representation
by the Seloct Cormnittee—bat it is belioved that tha
ciuise can and will ho removed by the Bcloct Couj
From appearances, yesterday, tho Convention
tlVawB towards its close, and wiib u njuro clii'eriiig
prospect of a harmonious conclusion. Nevertheless,
tl oortA ieeiftr may again blow them out to sen.—
*iyicre was the best spirit prevalent in tho Commit
til&of tlie Whole, and in particular a most eloquent
^viYnlicatioo of the Judiciary by !\Jr. Leigh of Ches
Q2J* In another column will Ire foila'i the apportion
tJlCnt «f .Delegates and Senators dcviseJ by thei
iwlcct Comm it i co, which reported tho new Consti
tution, and which by accident, wasmnitted yesterday.
\IVte two articles as reported, have boon recommitted
to the Select Committee, and it is probable will uu
Khrgo considerable alterations.
!/!?* V.rc commence this morning. Mr. Octoko’s
speech, revised by himself, iD which he assigns his
reasons for taking tire step which baa exposed him
IP Criticism and animadversion. This oircwmstance,
^lod the importance of the subject, will secure it b
'g£u«ral perusal.
{£3* Various communications on hatu], will receive
Qje earliest attention. ,
YeStcrdas, the Convention resolved itself into
Cfbmraittee of the Whole, Mr. Stanard in the Chair,
Cn the Report of the 8cleei Committee.
The Chair proceeded to read the Report, section
by section. The third section having been read,
Mr. Naylor'complained of the apportionment of
^presentation in the House of Relegates, as it re
garded the conntica of Berkley and Morgan, which
were thrown together and allowed but two members.
The county of Shenandoah, was entitled by the ratio
to three members, and was given three accordingly;
but that county with 16,000 white inhabitants, was
gjven a Senator to itself. Whereas Berkley which
nearly opprmiohed the standard which would entitle
Tier to tw* members, and Morgan than which many !
XsJaa populous counties were allowed a delegate to
themselves, were given but two members between
ihetn- In consideration of this circumstance, Air.
Naylor proposed to take one delegate from Bhcnan
tloah, and give it to Morgan.
Mr. Boyd supported tlio same views. lie did not
\biuk that eoual justice was done to the different
■portions of the Valley. Berkley had 9085 white
iljlnibjtantg, - yet was allowed with Morgan, but
tyro membeis. Every other county, save Mononga
lia which came near Berkley in population, was°al
Towed two, and many counties with as small a popu
lation as Morgan, was allowed one. This was not
311st or equal. There were three distinct interests in
the Valley—the James River, tho Shenandoah, nnd
"lire Potomac.—and representation ought to be appor
tror.cd with some eye to equality among these various
interests. Mr. Boyd ga\« various tabular state
ments to show the excess given to Sbenamlonh, tho
ui5uvtiec done to Berkley and Morgan, and the pro
priety of taking one of the throe from Shenandoah,
dud giving it to Morgan, so as to allow one to Mor
gan separately, and two to Berkley.
3Ir. Coolco suggested to the gentleman, who had
preceded h’m. that in all probability, a proposition
would be made in tho course of the consideration of
ilia report, to odd 13 members, to the Honso of Del
egates,? to the east, and 6 to the west, which would
tumble tho Convention to sntisfy the now dissatisfied
Itprtione of the Convention, and' supersede the neces
sity of the motion of the gentleman froDi Hampshire
fMr. Naylor.)
Upon tui3 bi-rrt. Mr. INaylor withdrew his motion to
Mr. Claiborne expressed big satisfaction at. the in
timation given by the gentleman from Frederick,
(Mr. Cooke) which without disturbing the principle
of Mr Cordon’d basis, would contribute to the gene
ral content ment.
Mr. Cooke then moved to iacrcaso the number of
Delegates fr.au 127 to MO—-7 to be-added to tbo
l.ast nnd 6 to the West, preserving tho relative dis
tribution of power among the 4 grand divisions of
tbo Staio, as provided in the scheme of apportion
ment of tbo gtmlleman from Albemarle, (Mr. Gor
don.) This would enable the Conveation to satisfy
■^-lrions cr>ontic6 which were really aggrieved by the
present apportionment.
Mr. Heigh of Chesterfield (the draftsman of the
legislative portion of the Constitution) commented’on
fhc difficulty which hnd been experienced in making
fho apportionment—and suggested that if the appor
tionment were arranged anew, it would be expedient
to fix a maximum number of Delegatee, nnd leave it
discretionary with the committee to select that ntim
her which coftld bo most equally apportioned, pre
serving the relative distribution of power among the
four great divisions of thrf State. The number 140,
ho thought might answer the purpose.
Mf Tyler expressed his approbation of the pro
position of the gentleman from Chesterfield. In rc
-gard to his portion of the State, he believed the
Committee had done full nnd entire justice, yet he
thought it was possible by the nddit.ion of a single
member to improve the arrangement, and to unite
that district as one ram in favor of ibe new Consti
*t ut ion.
I’he question was then taken on striking out 127,
and carried in the affirmative—ayes 64.
Mr. I/oigh of Chesterfield, now moved to rccotn
jnit the 3<i article of the constitution with Instruc
tions to apportion delegation anew. and preserving
he same relation among the 4 great divisions of
no Plato, ae is provided by the plan of Mr. Gordon,
making 130. the maximum number of the House
vf Delcate*.
No question was taken, tho 3d article being for
Uie present, passed by, as was the article arranging
senatorial districts, at the suggestion of Mr. Townes!
I booth article being read, Hr. Leigh of Chester
ueid, moved to amend it by inserting alter the words
provided that,” a clause, excluding all persons hold
ing lucrative offices from seals in the Legislature_
ami the amendment was adopted.
®r; Leigh moved to amend the 5th article by rc
strictung eligibility to seats in the Legislature to
freeholder*—urging that there was no incompati
bility between this restriction, and any extension of
suffrage that might be agreed upou—and the amend
ment was agreed to.
The 6th section being read, Mr. Chapman moved
to strike out the words “Either House may adjourn
‘in ,rc?Prc,iivp,y-” and to insert “Neither House
shall during tho session of the Legislature, Without
the consent of the other, adjourn itself for more than
three days, nor to auy other place than the one at
which they are sitting. In support of this amend
ment, Mr. Chapman stated the practice of the
Senate to adjourn fora length of time, and that oreat
inconvenience resulted from it. Another reason was
that by the provision as it stood, one House mio-ht
sit at one place and the other at another—or one
might adjourn finally, and leave ho other in session. I
He thought this highly inexpedient, and that it I
i ought to be provided against.
Ulr Ceigb of Chesterfield. said tliut the provision
as it stood was ft part of tho old Constitution—tliat
there hud always b' en a good correspondence be
tween tho two Houses—aud that tho power of pro
rogation ought to be vested somewhere, aud he could
conceive circumstances which would render the ex
ercise of such a power highly salutary aud impor
SJr. Nicholas did not conceive tho power in ques^
tion.of ono uou.se adjourning itself without the con
sent of the other, as properly n prorogation. That
was exercised upon tlio whole Legislature,and by an
indopeurirnt authority. He had Jong becu of opin
ion that the provision ot the gentleman from (idea
(JJr. Chapman) was necessary—for besides tho re
tarding of public business by the habit of the Kena'e
to take a recess, it was placed in the power of either
house by the privilege of adjourning itself, to defeat
the most important mea-mre.
iur. mm me cseuato or the House of
Delegates had it in their power to reject any incu
aure, a-ud thus of defeating it, without resorting to
adjournment for that purpiiso. That was. he took it,
a complete answer to that objection as to the power
of prorogation—it required tw<> houses to make a
Legislature; and if either adjourned itself,it was o
qnivaleot to prorogation. - No case had occurred In
our history, whore it had been expedient to exercise
this power, but Mr L. stated a case, where its exer
cise might be expedient and valuable. lie contro
verted the idea that the habit oft lie Senate to adjourn
in the early part, of the sossion, hnil ever retarded the
public business, the loss of t'me being more than
made np by tho greater despatch with which the Se
nate did business from its small numbers, &.c.
Mr. Nicholas briefly roplied to Mr. Leigh.
Mr. Tazewell said that this power had existed lr>r
5-1 years—no inconvenience had resulted from rf.hut
on the contrary much convenience, and why should
it be changed? .But this was not all. The {Senate
is made the court of impeachment, and if this power
was not given, the House of Delegntos might be
compelled to remain in session, until the Senate had
finished the impeachments. Where was the reason
for this? There was now a greater necessity for ei
ther House to adjourn itself,than formerly.
Mr- Chapman in reply to the idea that no evil had
occurred from the power, said that it ought to be n
sufficient inducement to make tho chang/ho propos
ed, that it might prevent future evil. But he ulledg
od that, in fact, evil had occurred—and that but for
the recess of the Senate* a Governor and Councillors
would have been elected beforo this time, and the
public business expedited. Delays annually occur
red from tliis cause, to the public inconvenience and
dissatisfaction. Mr- Chapman adverted to the words
of his amendment, which provided that voith the con
sent of the other, either house might ndjourn, and
thus obviated tho objection made by tho gentleman
from Norfolk (Mr. Tazewell.)
Mr. Johnson said two evils had been anticipated
from tho power of either house adjourning itself_the
one the delay caused by temporary Adjournment—the 1
other the more serious evil of either house adjourn- !
mg itself permanently, without tho consent of the!
other. In reply to tho first, lie said he had beer, for !
soroo time a membor of tho Senate, and us bad been .
stated, that body was in the habit, having nothing to j
do, of taking a fortnight’s holyday in the beginning !
of the session. He knew that dissatisfaction had
existed from this cause, but he denied that there was
the least reason for it, or that it had ever in fact, de
layed the public business. Members of the House of
Delegates were disposed to excuse themselves to the
people for a long session, by transferring the blame
to the Senate. As to the evil apprehended from
permanent adjournment, Mr. J. argued to prove that
the apprehension was imaginary.
iUr. loaner rettectcu upon the long sessions of
the Legislature, which, lie said, had bad as much
effect as the nfliouB Judiciary in calling the Conven
j tion. The blame was thrown by one Il.nisc upon
i the other, ami the people to remedy the grievance j
i had called us together. To take away the apology I
i afforded by the annual temporary adjournment of
j the Senate,he should vote for the amendment.
Mr. Giles believed that there was some reason for
tho compluint of tho Senate’s anuually adjourning,
. and that it originated from tho Senate’s having no
power to originate bills, and thus leaving thein''fro
| ijucntly nothing to do. Greatly attached to the
I old constitution, he yet was in favor of giving the
Senate this power in all cases, except money bills,
when the cause whioh produced their temporary ad
journment would be twilidrawn Mr. Gilesexpress
| ed the opinion,in reply to the argument of Mr. TaZe
| well, that the House ofRelugaics being tho prose
cutors, must remuin in session during the trial of
j impeachments.
Mr. Randolph said he should vote against the a
J mcndmsnt upon n principle that had always govern
ed him, that it was unwise to disturb any thing at
rest, and from which no practical mischief flow
ed. He should vote against it on another ground.
1 Whatever opinion there might he of the safety found
, in n multitude of Counsellors, he believed there was
i hut one opinion ns to tho evil of a multiplicity of laws,
he would do nothing to expedite their .increase. lie
believed that more was to he apprehended to free
principles from over legislation—fr< lu the armies
of Legislators aud Judges—than from all other cau
ses united. There were at this time, besides the
great manufactory at Washington,four & twenty of
these Laboratories at work in the U. States—pro
ducing oppression ba'olytnore tolerable than the suf
ferings beyond the water. He had learned from
the great and good book, that the book of King*, stic
• eceded the book of Judge*.
Air. Mercer followed at some length, iu Tcply to
the objection*made to the proposed mneitdinent.
Mr. George in reply to the statement of Mr. John
son, that no evil hbd resulted from the Senate’s ta
king a recess—mentioned a case, in which from that
cause, a number of hills had beeti postponed for 12
moot Its. He had been nine sessions a member of
the 1J. of L). and knew ofimieli inconvenience which
had resulted from the temporary adjournments of
,the Senate
jrr. Lciglj observed, 'that the case to by
tuc gentleman irom razcwcil (Mr George) was a
cuuso of congratulation, rather than of regret
The quest ion was then put, and the amendment
passed—ayes 50.
Mr. Summers moved farther to amend the 6th ar
tide, by providing that the executive have power to
issue writs of election to supply vacancies where
they occur during the recess of the General l£3,..n
Mr. Tazewell suggested a difficulty—suppose the
vacancy arise by the acceptance of some other place1
Who is to decide whether this bo a disqualification?
Was it intended to give the Executive this power
and to exclude the Legislature from deciding upon
the qualifications of its own members? ° -
Mr. Summers said that his amendment proposed to
limit tho exercise of the power by provisions of law
—and the Legislature would no doubt restrict its oo
eration to such cases, as were plainly vacancies to
every understanding, llo did not therefore think
tho amendment obnoxious to the objection of the
air. Randolph suggested a difficulty which had oe
jcurred to him—He supposed a case—that the Slier
ill hod returned two members for a particular county
’ V!,° them dies—and the fclxecutiye issues a new
writ ol election under which u member is elected.
Ilut the scat of the member who died might have
rightfully belonged to another, who designed to con
R '~'^ns it not seen, that the essential power of
deciding upon the returns anrl qualifications of its
members was taken from the Legislature and put
into other hands? Ho had thought thut the science
of politics, like the science of life, ought to be go
verned by probabilities—but it appeared to him that
we were reversing the rule, and guarding against
most improbable possibilities—against a hierarchy,
and titles and offices from foreign potentates,_
instead of probabilities that must and would occur.
Mr. Summers replied to tlm objection of .Mr.
Mr Scott moved to amend by confining the amend
ment to cases of vacancies occasioned by death or
resignation, which was ndopted—and thus amended,
the resolution was agreed to—ayes 51.
[Mr. Nicholas in the progress of the argument,
asked if there was any provision in the Constitution,
giving to a member of Assembly the right of resign
mg—and Mr. Summers replied, that to give such ri^ht
was one object of the nmeodincut among others, ^by
recogniziug its existence.]
Mr. Mercer moved still farther to amend the Gth
article, by giving to either House the power of judg
ing of :he election, returns and qualifications of its
owm members, to punish its members for disorderly
behaviour, and with the concurrcucc of two-thirds
oxpel a member, but nut a second time for the same
Which Was earned in the affirmative.
Air Alerccr moved still further to amend, by privi
leging members from arrest, except tor treason aud
forgery, or from being questioned in any other place
for nuy tiling said in debate.
Air. Leigh said tbe provision was unnecessary, be
ing already, tho law of tbe land, ns a part of the
common law. In the government of tho U. S. the
common law did not prevail, nntl thero it was neces
sary. The amendment was rejected.
Mr. ATercer moved still further to amend, by re
turning both Houses to keep a Journal, to’publish
their proceedings, if socrecy be uot required by the
public interest, and that tho ayes and noos be taken
at tho demand of one-tenth ot tho members present
The 7tb articls having been rend. Air. Mercer
moved to strike out the words “except money hills,"
which in no instance shnJJ be altered bv the Senate,’
but wholly approved or rejected.” "Ne<mtived—
Ayes 35. °
Air. Giles moved to amend, by giving the Senate
a eoucurrent power of originating in every case but
money bills
.Air. P. P. Barbour declared his opposition to the
principle or giving tbe Senate concurrent power ot’
originating. His experience in another Legislature,
had convinced him of the expediency. The two
housesof Congress were frequently acting simulta
neously upon the same subject, which produced a
great loss ot time, and nothing was more common
than for a measure lost in one house, to be immedi
ately originated iu the other. These were practical
objections. As to the principle, it appeared to him
that wo lost by it, all the advantage of the Senate’s
acting as a supervising body
Mr. Giles sail! that, his Congressional experience
had lead him to opposite conclusions from those come
to by the gentloman from Orange. In practice, tho
rule would accellerate business, and shorten the ses
sions of the Legislature. It did not follow that more
deliberation would be used by the Senate, be
cause of its not having nn originating power.—
He agreed with the gentloman tVoin Charlotte (Mr.
Randolph) on the evil of excessive legislation, but
lie did not think he had hit on the right cause of
that evil. This was from the number of political
srhemers and young lawyers, who desired to reduce
I their whims into the shape of laws.
Mr. Randolph opposed the amendment, which '
he thought would produce the fnmo between the
two Houses here, which ho had certainly seen play- j
ed by two ot her Houses—pass my bill and I will pass '
yours. T he oid adnge said—and all old adages were
true—that the byestandor sees more of the game I
than tlie player. The Senate as spectators, saw i
more of the game than they would do if allowed to
cut in, and take pnrt in the excitement of organi/.a- j
tion. The amendment was negatived.
The Oth article having been read; Air. Campbell
of Bedford, moved to amend by striking out 2 3 of
the Sonatc as necessary to convict in "eases of im
linpeaeiitnent, and inserting J j. Negatived.
Mr. Nicholas ^thc 12th article having been read)
moved to amend it in the case ofhouscboldcrs admit
ted to vote, by requiring that such housekeeper or
head of a family, shall have been assessed to-.
Mr Fowell said this question had already been
three times decided in the convention and committee
of the whole. He made this remark, to induce his
friend from Richmond (Mr. Nicholas) to reserve his
motion until we got into the House, when a final
vo'.o miirht be taken by ayes and uocs.
Air. Nicholas said tins was with him a vital ques
tion, and briefly supported his motion to amend. If
being a housekeeper whs a sufficient qualification,
why was he required to pay a pari of t he State reve
nue? And if any payment, of revenue was required,
should it not be to some real, substantial amount?
rue nroeuuincnt was negatived—nyes 3G.
Mr. Coaller moved to amend the 12th section. In
inserting a clause ngninst separate elections. lie
thought Representatives ought to account to the
people, and he did not sec how this could he done,
at 8 or 10 different places. Mr. Coalter recited a
case which he had witnessed in confirmation of his 1
objection to separate elect ions. His friend front Au
gusta had.once voted to raise the taxes. The dem
agogues laid hold of it. and the universal opinion was
that ho Would be turned out. He had nit opportuni
ty of defending himself before the whole people, and
gave the reason fur Ins vote, that the Treasury was
insolvent. He was in the crowd at. the time, and
heard the voters say. it was well t'or him he had voted
as he he did. Ho Was reelected; whereas if there
had been separate elections, ho would havo bcon
turned out. Elections which brought all the people
together, were valuable political school days.
Sir. Thompson replied to Mr. f 'uplter. nTisob
to-mocrow '
The amendment was negatived without a count.
was negatived n°W * ,UotiQn to uJJoun1’ which
Th® J4lh *«icle having been read, Mr. Claiborne
moved to amend it, by giving the election of Governor
to the the Leg'slatme, instead of to the people as
provided by that article -but withdrew it withtheimi
-tnation that he would renewTt in the Ifouse.
r-i.1 ,lfc2'l,‘artlc]o having been read, Mr. Lei°h of
Cliestertmld, moved to insert a clause to the effect
that the Attorney General shall be appointed by n
rlwri* ° 1,1 *-}'?l,sca’ he conmiissioned by the j
of tZ r' aadrh'l,i hoId W- 'Office during the pleasure 1
ot the General Assernbly—which was agreed to. I
Mr. Leigh moved still farther to amend the 27th
22i b* »y P-OV'diJ,,lf t!*“t ,he Sl"*ritfe «n<l Coroners ;
nn.1^ nu»“»*'edHy the respect ,ve County Courts,
and wd.cnapproved by the Governor, be commissioned j
nV V er Juf.tices sha!l appoint Constables,
aud all Ices ot the utoresuid officers, be regulated by ,
law—which was agreed to. J
| i lie aih section having been read, Mr. Giles said he
considered the requisition that two thirds ofthc whole
number elected shall agree in the removal of a Judge,
as destroying the object of judicial responsibility
yihu.hu as in view, ibis provision, and the citation
of-.0 days, lie thought clogged the provision in such
away, as fo render it totally valueless. On these
features, Mr. G. commented with great point and se
\ eritv, affirming t hat instead of providing for the res
ponsibility of Judges they nHorded them a cloak of i
entire irresponsibility. Mr. G. expressed himself in
favor of giving the power of removal ton majority of
I the Legislating. lie moved to amend, by .riviim
the power of removal to two thirds of the members
prese.utaijd voting.
, L,0,hr'1 of Chesterfield opposed the amendment,
and entered a defence of tlm Judiciary from the iirc
po^oasions against them. The evils felt, lie ascri
bed n.t to die personal character of the Judges, hut
! 10 the ""Perfection of the Judicial System—us for
j C,X'lU?j, gf ** lU,lduy 1,10 C,rcuit Court System, a Jud«o
Should be Sick, the whole Circuit was deprived of
their Courts—as was the case in a circuit which 1
had been often alluded to. the Judge of which, was
precisely that Judge, who was the most popular and
acceptaule to Ins District. Mr. L. stated u Treat
many particulars, which had contributed to the un
popularity o» the Judiciary, without anv fault of
theirs. He knew nothing which in the bast called
tor the seventy with which this body seemed disno- ‘
posed to treat the Judicial Corps. Fueling uud be i
lievirtT this, he could uot withhold his testimony of!
t.icir departs, or his efforts for softening the provis- I
ions ut the Constitution wliich related to tin tn. Tin-!
reason why two thirds and not a bare majority ou"ht '
to bo required, was to guatd the Jud«e aimingt I
suduen ebullitions of passion mid party feeling.* If1
two thirds of both Uou>es present, were onlv rniuir
ed. botb Houses being thin, a hate majority of a I
majority might do that, which cou’d never have been
done in lud Hi uses. i\Ir. L. gave <i variety of views
to show the importance of requiring two-thirds of the j
members ejected, to concur in conviction, to protect I
the innocence and independence of the Judiciary. i
Mr. Giles disclaimed participation in any prejudice 1
against, the Judges. He concurred in the justice of
the honorable character given to the Judges by his
colleague.(Mr. Leigh.) His object was not personal
to t horn, but to apply the same principle of responsi
bly to the Judges, which was applied to other func
tionaries. Mr. G. enforced his former views at
some length, and denied the applicability 0f tf,,.
term “independence of the Judiciary,” as in use
among us.
i lie question was then put, and the amendment
negatived bv an equal vote.
The ‘29th article having been read, Mr. Cooke
moved an amendment in regard to the creation of I
nrvv counties, (which will Iki reported hereafter.)
which was laidon tiie table and ordered to he prin
ted. -
The COlh article having boon rend, Mr Cooke of
fered an additional article providing for organizing
the new government (reported to morrow) winch
was ordered to bo printed.
The CetHtitntion having ho >n read through by
the Chair, the Committee rose, and the Chairman
reported progress.
On motion of Mr. Leigh of Chesterfield, n reso
lution was adopted, recommitting the 3rd and -itL
articles (respecting the apportionment of Senators
and Delegates) to the seioct committee, with iustruc- j
tions to reapportion the latier in reference loanum- j
her of Delegates not exceeding 15U, and observing
the same relative. distribution of power among the
four great divisions of the Statu, as was provided by
the proposition of the gentleman from Albemarle
(Air Gordon.)
Mr. Clavtor moved to amend the resolution, by
further instructing the committee to obseivc the
same rule in apportioning representation among the
several portions of the same great division, as"thcy
were instructed to observe in apportioning it. amoiu7
the four great divisions in relation to each other
This motion to amend gave rise to an interesting dis
cussion between Messrs. Claytor, Leigh and tScoit.
which will be reported to morrow. The amendment
was negatived. The Convention then adjourned.
Yfstfroay, a conimnicaiion was received from the (.'over
nor, enclosing resolutions from the Legislature of Vermont, re
laiing to a proposed change in the election of President of the
0. States, which on motion of Mr. Eppes, was laid on the ta- i
The Chairmen of several of the Standing Committees, made !
On motion of Mr Minor, tiro House decided to proceed to i
the execution of the joint order of the day, lor the electron ef
an Auditor of Pubic Accounts.
Mr. Christian nominated James E. Heath, who was elected
without opposition.
On motion of Mr. Minor, the House decided to proceed to
the execution of tlic joint order of the day, for the election of
a Second Auditor.
Mr. Minor nominated Jamds Brown, Jr. who was elected
without opposition.
A communication was received from the Governor, enclosing
a letter from Louis Dwight of Boston, Secretary of the Prison
Discipline Society, accompanied with a scries of the reports of
the Society, in pamphlet form.
On motion Of Mr. Hulherfoorrl, they were referred to the.
Committee on the Penitentiary Institution.
Mr. Hives of Prince George, moved to reconsider the vote
of yesterday, vacating the seat of Humphrey Billups; return
cd a delegate from the county of Matthews Mr Hives stated
the object of his motion, was to allow Mi. Billups to he heard,
as be was absent yesterday from fmlisposrtimi.
Mr. Eppes Opposed the motion, and said that Mr Billups
was not entitled to a seat, or to he beam, and it would be use
lessly consuming the time of the House, as the question had
been lielore twice decided in the same wav.
Mr. Garland hoped that the motion would prevail; the sud
den disposition of this question yr.-terdav. had the appearance
of harshness. It did not follow, that the dnri»ioii now, would
he the same as formerly. The disqualification may have been
lYIr Krrcnivai sain, if the liniiof re'‘r>n*tf1crcrl this (|U(stiBn, 1
it would be necessary to reconsider the question directing a
new writ of election to tssne.
The. question was then taken—ayes M-mV* 60. So the
: House agreed to reconsider the vote of yesterday.
Mr White supported the resolution of the f'oinmtttep. The
( ounnitter had given Mr. II. every opportunity to produce sat
isfactory evidence, that he was not a SlinisW of the (lospel,
whir h he lrarl failed to do. and it would he an improper course
now. to permit further evidence.
Mr. Billups called for the reading of a resolution offered bv
Mr Mason of Fie lerick. instructing rhe Cominittee. of Privi
leges and Flections, to enquire whether Mr. Billups was not a
Minister of tire (insiiel, and thus ineligible to a seat in thi« i
Mr Billups raid this was the third time he «tnod in this sirtt
1 atif|p hefoie tlie Mmiy |( ■ stated route fact* in relation to the
srMrhsdjtarfof the rpiegt!<jn. Tba* when So* daufiituentt re
elected him, lie knew that ho wmdd not bn uhvihJe, unless h*
sur rendered In, l.met.o.u, a* a .Munster of the oVc„el and |? •
authoritrf,,<JTre,|,Mt>!'1* *U,,C,"WN and he non stood without anv
V ncW Hi!*? ""‘‘I' CSfe'" ilS a '"•••nher 01 the Methodist
V.,11, V HC1|1"; P'^^dv, reruheate front two member* i.
authority m. the Chinch, that he had «u.rendered hi* c|"ft.d
tlU,| °",y '’.'•K110" he Jttid heard made to this . . *
turrJ^d.u i ‘,1,al !* tHW‘ 'h8t *>e had made ti t •
Urn the r,eClM’? «<**—'••« tbai tlmjart was. '
uortu f.v . ' Wi*8 tor ,u
‘o ,"°ri“ H,‘ loe disagree* I.leu.-Ss ‘
i I Huf*tl,al "* *>is constituents, and enquired. if f>
«Wdhe)rVm' dihlramhistmei.t? Whai n .•
X . unless he were to commit - 1
exmiUionJ I*. ‘T' '}* C’hurcb, which would can*.;
,i r e cmicluileii liis remarks, moving lo mil
L ‘,7sT,r‘ °Lf ",e ‘ >-y vtrikif,* the lore! m .
so as to make It read, that he is entitled fh his seal. " •
o..r7mi'V? • r,,mCC 0eorB»- rephedfftfar ll.Hup*, inn
LJ 11,1 ,s i« l" con,u*led w'"« the fhsl expulsion oi >*,
M1 V "C‘ wa* siojitc difference of opinion
all the iVn>!M',U ''ilt U,C (’"minil,M had given to Mr. ;•
all the time lie required, to adduce evidence of a revocation .
«Um«TbV\W K M'-.r-,>"'fmled, that the cemficatc ). -
,. i. ' j*1, tail lroi> persons having anthoritv to r*
vokc Air Uive« then read nyM-tlm Methods D.J.nliu, .
sustain his conclusion. •**.'puu«,
| Air. \ infer soil ot Botletourt, was opposed to tlie repott r
. he C ommiuee, because il does not assert, that II Billups
Cr "f r e hw •* '">«*. Kir. II. is h'ov
>n ai r* ,,Pcause l,e "as so three' years ago
, Mr. C arey was also op(iosed to the report of the Committee
He considered this, a* in fact, an impeachment qoad this ru-i i
| T"atr“!‘‘ r,;tur„ of the Sheriff was pri.ua face evidence i.P#
• vor of the right, and threw the burden of proof on those wr >
j endeavored to disqualify him. »f proof was adduced, wl.uh
showed presumptively that iMr. B. was disqualified, then and
only then ought lie to be called on improve bis right. That t! e
<lo"c wJronS in ,aki»R » former decision of U„s
Ilouse as evidence of disqualification. It did not lollow that
•r.CaV-e ‘'lri l> wa> l,,ei' disqualified-, he was not now qualifiers
I lie C.(Niiuiittee ought terhave inquired whether at tl.e time of
his election he was disqualified or not.
.ft,f *;«trland in reply, contended tliat after two decisions of
tins House, the presumption was that the disqualification 'iill
exists (inn] the contrary be proven-. The burden of ,,r.,of was
tiien ii|uui Mr. B , to show that the disqualification no lunger
existed. I he evidence was insufficient to prove that his an
thority to pieach had beep surrendered.
Mr. Old addressed the I louse in defence of die report of tho
Committee and the course pursued by it. He contended that
t Air Anderson s argument was correct, it would he im i rosin -
o.e to prove a disqualification in auv similar case. Fur unless
ptool is admitted that Mr. B had previously excused the
lone lions of a Minister, no pronl ran be had. Tlie Committee
h.tn taken the former decisions of this House, a proiicrk con
stituted tribunal, to prove tire disqualification at a fwmer peri
od, and decided that Mr H. should be r. quired to show that the
disqualification no lougor existed.
Air. t arey briefly replied to Mr. OJtl, and restatedliis views.
Air. .Anderson said aftit Words in explanation of liisfiuiiiter
remarks, and moved to recommit tlie report.
Mr. Bayly took pan in the debate, and said he should throw
out ul view the gentleman who was the object of the resolution
tinder consitlerciion; for although lie'lieltevcd that llte gentle-,
man was most iCspectable, not only from his short acquaint- ••
aiu-e with him, hut because lie now has, and heretofore has had
mi two occasions, the confidence of the people of a respectable
county, which they have shown by clothing him with the high
bust be now holds But he would consider the principle
involved in the report: that i-, whether ihcjteoplu of Matthews
county shall enjoy the privilege of ejecting the mini of the.ir
own choice, according to tlie provisions Af the constitution, or
****** tlu-y shall he by constrvctinn deprived of that i.'-lu. it i,
thcrefoie a question ol the rights of tin- people af Matthew-,
mure than that of the returned member, who is now a member
ol this H»ute by the Sheriff «.f that county, who i.-.in officer
ol tins commonwealth for the people of that countv. The
F oiq.iiittee ought to have reported lacls, such :t: tin: Hot.-e
would act upon, and not that Mr BrtHps was returned a u em
ber of tiiis House three years ago and that he is the same man
that was then disqualified, am ('therefore it i- presumed I1C ts
ineligible now. Are the people ol Matthew s lit- surjt pie-mop
linn as this, to be deprived o! the services of the man of their
(Mcciion? 1 lie contrary ou^ht to have hern j>re?unu*ct; that tin*
people of Matthews, kh.iwing the objection to then member
which- was urged against him three years ago, would heftiii’
tltey elected him last April, had made themselves s;iii:fu‘<1 that
the same objection should not now be an object ion to their nteni
her, ami had thcrefoie voted for him, knowing that he had m
signed his office of Minister of the (>'osi>el Silicic this Hon e
will never permit any former House of Delegates,'to judge ,,f
the (jiialiiicafiun ot members of this House; they will peruse i)h*.
Constitution, and let no other body but themsklves, to judge of
tbtii; until theiefore tlie Committee, or some other person
proved the member from Matthews to be a Minister of the Gi,,
pei, he ought not to be required to say one word to prove the
negative, and the gentleman is entitled to his seat, until tie
contrary was most manifest by rcspgcial le evidence. Will ao
mau say that aMinistei of the Gospel cannot resign his saej
office, autl become eligible to this house? although the society
whom he belongs may refuse hint that privilege, will you pm ' "
in the power of any sect of religion to say that they can t
qualify a man from being a delegate?
Mr. Baylv said he did not know at this day, to what ex t. •
the term Jlliuislcr of ’he Gospel would apply: at the time
tlie adoption of the Constitution, it meant Minister i f •:
tahlisbed church, who had glebes and salaries ai the . ha
tho people. But even liven they permitted those Mn.i-icr •
resign their charge and become members of the Gerun d
sembly; he instanced the Rev Mr. Thureteref Winchi-st.::, •
Rev Air Andrews of Williamsburg, and the’Rev. Air S_
of York; alter these gentlemen had resigned their slel • - •
salaries and become legislation-, they were not the wore
by occasionally preaclong to tfn.ir neighbours aiul friend -
Again, the quaker* have uo licensed preachers, and ;-j| f;
when they choose; will yon erpeij a quak.er finni this tlm., ,
should he on any occasion speak in a meeting, and say lie i
preached, and was a Minister of the Gospel?
Sir, prove the charge of being a Minister of the Go
against the member from Matthews—you can send lOr the
der, and compel Iris alien fiance: this is a power tliat liio |-.u rr,
her from Matthews tloes not pos.-ers.
Suppose, sir, a charge was made against a irrfmbei of ti
House, that lie held a civil office under the State, nr was
21 years old, would you requite him to convict hints.-’t? '• •
you would sav to the member, we will not put you on the
j fence before the charge is proved.
The question to recommit was then put, and dt ji.Vd. <iu
I division, in the ueg .live—ayes 40, noes 105 ’
i * *,e <|l*csiion whs tb^n out on i|ic HinfvirfniPiii prortiM’d •
p.Mr. Billups, to strike out the word ••not.” before the word ••« :i
j titled,"’ iiiir! the ayes and ones were Ordered.
; Mr. Gilmer moved to lay tl:^ r>. | tot outlie table. Ht said
i tie should now he unable to give a vote with il.e information a:
! present in Ins possession. He considered it a very grave inie
! tion, and one requiring mature deliberation. It was a question
i between the people of the Commonwealth, and the ■ t'ntbe oi
I Matthews. ' '
; Mr. Grr-ory was ill favor of laying tire leporl On the labie.
tor flic same reasons a^FipmecI by Mr (>iimer.
1 he question was then put on lav ng u on the table, and on
j a division, decided in the affirmative—ayes T.9 noes 7 7
I Mr. White gave notice that he should on Friday, move to
; take "P 'be hill concerning the Itichrnoml Dock Compunv
j AiitMhen the House adjourned. .
xoTiceT^^ "'''1 L--~JJS‘’!
rI^ UK business heretofore conducted tinder t lie fiym
X of.? T.JiKTlT.(). .Mounts &. Co. in thi:-- edy. ia
Iliis day-dissolved by matunl consent, fVmiim. Jr.
ft pli S. and Edwin James, rr/onc, are rtfiliori'/ed f.*
pottle tbc business of said concern. All persons ha
ving claims, will prr* nt ibem to the said J imcscs
for payment, and those indebted, nr • most r«;,Ti,t?»,tly
‘ requested to triahe mimedinie payment to • I., jp
j Richmond, f.tli J;m. m.;o 2«vv t-.v
Rank of l irgimtt, Jau. 4, I 8 J('.
ViHiHE President and Director* have rl> < ’arc* a
A dividend of thro" j r rout., fi*r the ..ist ||. h
year, which will I.** paid on :ho loth infant
W. da\T>rtd';e.
jnn 5—»8t e _^ Cas-hirr.
Farmers"' flank of l ir^inia.
rWAIIE President nnd Directors have m i ,*re i a di
A vidcod of t wo and n hnlfper cent. ,<n tie ('a i
tnl Stock, for lli» last six months: wh>ch \*
paid to the Stockholders on 1!m 1 <th in.-f.
jan s—tic W|| NEKERVW t
HP HE general mee.lirto of the Miitiir.l As*
'*■ snrance Society njfsin.-t ,,rc on lfni.i'ip'- ;]>n
S'at<* of Virginia, ^y ill hr hold at ;In* oil,; o ,.f ip. ’
said tfoeictv ir. Us city of Ki ium.iJ, on F* v • •
| (lav of January next, If! >0.
Principal Ayr01' <ii the
Jgc 20~*t0t c Mutual As;-a* .*ri*.c £: fit** r

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