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WEATHER. (U. 3. Weather Bureau Forecart.) Showers tonight and tomorrow with slowly rising temperature. Temperatures; Highest, 62, at 12 m.; lowest, 54, at 5 a.m. today. Full report qu Page 7. Closing N. Y. Stocks and Bonds, Page 30 ■V.-. OQ Entered as second class matter post office. Washington, D. C. U. S. OFFERS 5-YEAR PACT AND DEBT PARLEY IN 1930; FRENCH PLAN. REJECTED “It’s All Over,” Says Caillaux to One of Colleagues. DEPARTURE PLANS REMAIN UNCHANGED Hope of Agreement Still Is Held for Meeting This Afternoon. Flatly rejecting the latest French proposal to refund their four-hlllion dollar debt, the American Debt Com mission today made a counterproposal understood In well informed circles to be entirely different from anything yet considered; a tentative five-year plan to be reopened at the end of that period. The American plan was said In un official circles to have asked the French to pay $40,000,000 a year for five years. At the end of this five-year time, the American proposal would provide for reopening the entire ques tion of funding the French debt. French Foreign Minister Caillaux received rejection of his latest offer and the new American counterproposal in a brief session of less than 10 minutes today and immediately went to the Hamilton Hotel for a session with his commission. Said It’s All Off. • In a serious mood, he was known to have placed his arm about one of his close associates and said: "Well, my boy, it’s all off.’’ The French were blue this after noon, without mistake. The French liner France sails from New York tomorrow night, carrying Caillaux back to Paris. No one could predict shortly after noon today whether nj gotiations would survive the crisis. The American proposal was made, it was understood, as a last resort in order to give the visiting com mission an entirely fresh matter to consider, and with a view to allowing them the opportunity of postponing for five years the funding of all their debt. In five years, it is believed the Americans feel France will be better prepared to estimate accurately her future capacity to pay. In that time it was pointed out today by those close to the situation it will be known better than now, how well the Dawes plan will work, in affording to France her reparation payments from Ger many. It is known that the uncer tainty surrounding future payments from Germany is a large factor in the French hesitancy to go further in their offer. „ No Hopeful Signs. There is also the pending question now of a security pact among Euro pean powers which will be decided and be in a more definite state at the end of a five-year period. Some hope was expressed in unofficial American circles that the French might consider the entirely different American offer as a basis for further consideration. From the French, however, early this afternon there were no hopeful signs. No French f opinion would hazard a guess as to the outcome. Following the emphatic denial at the White House that any settlement had been reached, negotiations continued this morning, and a joint meeting be tween the two commissions was set for 3 o'clock this afternoon, when an answer by the French is expected. The French offer, refused in a short joint session of less than 10 minutes at the Treasury Department, had been presented by French Finance Minister Caillaux yesterday at a Joint meeting of French and American subcommit tees of the two commissions. M. Cail laux had offered $40,000,000 annually for the first five years, $60,00j,000 for the next seven years and an average annual payment over the amortization period of 62 years of not more than $100,000,000. The French also de manded a safeguard or security clause. Whole Plan Rejected. This whole proposition of the French, it was explained, was rejected as unacceptable by the American com mission, including the safeguard clause. This security clause had been emphasized as practically a vital fac tor in any agreement which the French would accept. The nature of the American counter proposal was not revealed, but it was understood to embody something of an entirely different nature from the line of negotiations previously fol lowed. One indication was that the i American offer might be considered a complete change. What this meant, however, was not made clear. It was emphasized, however, that following the conference with Presi dent Coolidge the American commis sioners had found the whole French proposal unacceptable, including the security clause. Finance Minister Caillaux. so far as the Americans know, has not altered 1 his determination to leave Washington i tomorrow morning to embark for l France from New York on the French - line ship France. This approach '■ yesterday noon have been well-nigh ( hectic. There was no one who could safely predict today whether an agreement (Continued on Page 2, Column 6.) BREAD PRICER SLASHED. CHICAGO. October 1 G* > ).—The prl'e of bread, wholesale to dealers, war slashed approximately 20 per cent today by the Ward Baking Co. of Chi cago. supplying about 98 per cent of the retailers here. The cuts enabled dealers to sell the large loaves for 12 Vi instead of 15 cents and the one-pound loaves for BVi Instead of 10. TRAIN RECORD CLAIMED. SEATTLE, Wash., October 1 (A*). — Engine. No. 2517 of the Great North ern Railway pulled into Seattle yes terday 110 hours from the time it left here for St. Paul, establishing what is claimed as a world long-dis tance record. Twenty-four engineers and twenty-four firemen were used on the trip, which totaled 3,600 miles. How Debt Parley Stands at Present France’s latest proposal, look ing to payment totaling $6,220,- 000 over a period of 68 years, Is rejected by the Ameri can commissioners, who main tain a solid front. United States makes a eoun ter proposal today. It is be lieved to be a settlement for five years, with a new funding ar rangement made then. The French ami American commissions meet at 3 p.m. to day for further conference, when an answer on the Ameri can offer of settlement is ex pected. M. Caillaux, head of the French debt commission, is still determined to Mill for home to morrow aboard the French liner, France. The so-called security clause, insisted upon by the French commissioners, by which France would be permitted to halt pay ments and see another revi sion if her resources prove in adequate to comply with the settlement, is refused by the Americans. President Coolidge fully is In formed of situation by the American subcommittee, and concurs with the derision. FRENCH IN ERROR IN TELLING OF PACT Drew Wrong Conclusion From Remark of Mellon. Believed Offer Accepted. BY DAVID LAWRENCE. The misunderstanding in the press reports which this morning prema turely announced an agreement be tween French and American mis sions is easily explained. When the subcommittee consisting of Secre tary Mellon, Secretary Hoover and Senator Smoot met with a subcom mittee composed of M. Caillaux and two members of the French mission yesterday the Americans asked that the French put their latest proposal in writing. Everything prior {hereto had been oral. M. Caillaux reached for a paper pad and pen and wrote out in longhand the detailed offer and signed It. There had been some suggestion that M. Caillaux had not really come to make a settlement but simply to make a gesture. His ac tion in promptly signing an offer re moved all such impressions at once. Agrees to Submit Offer. Secretary Mellon took the offer and said: "I cannot say whether this will be accepted. I will agree to* submit it to the full membership of the Ameri can Commission.” The French, however, jumped to the conclusion that this was a signifi cant statement, and when the sub committee Joined other members of the French mission the word was passed around that the Americans had agreed to the French proposal in subcommittee. Accordingly the in formation was given by a French spokesman to the press. Several American correspondents, knowing Secretary Mellon, Secretary Hoover and Senator Smoot to be controlling voices in the American commission, promptly Inferred that if the French information was correct the settle ment had been reached. The state ment Issued at the White House was designed to deny such reports. At the time the statement was issued the American commission had not even met to receive the French pro posal. Informally, of course, Mr. Coolidge had been apprised of its con tents. Proposal Is Unacceptable. The French proposal is indeed un acceptable. It provides for a pay ment of an annual average of 540,- 000,000 for five years and $60,000,000 for seven years thereafter, making a total of $620,000,000, and then the annual payments would average $100,000,000 frfr 56 years. The French arrived at these figures in this way: Having agreed to pay in all an aver age of $100,000,000 per year the total amount due in the course of 12 years would be $1,200,000,000. But in the meantime they would have paid five times $40,(100,000 and seven times $60,000,000, or a total of $620,000,000, which when subtracted from the Sl.- 200,000,000 due in 12 years would leave $580,000,000 to be deferred. The French suggested that this $580,000,- 000 be paid after the 62-year period had ended, namely in six years thereafter the payments averaging about $97,000,000 per year. But the Americans feel that any sum post poned as long as that would not be worth much in present-day values. Too Distant Maturity. Any security which has such a far off maturity date and bears no inter est would not have much market value. The statisticians figure it out that a dollar at the end of 62 years is worth about 3 cents in present-day value, so the $680,000,000 would really be worth not much more than $17,- 000,000 in actual dollars today. What the American commission ■wants is that the payments be so (Continued on Page 2, Column-3.) How Drunk Is Drunk? Is a Question Puzzling British Police Surgeon^ By the Associated Press. LONDON, October I.—A common standard for determining insobriety has been ineffectually sought for b>" London’s police surgeons. Failing/to reach an agreement they have decided to make a detailed report to the home secretary as to their ideas of fair tests to determine drunketmess. Dr. E. Rowland Fotherglll in the British Medical Journal says the time has ar rived to drop the use of the words “drunk” and "drunkenness." Uht Mtmim §?kf. V y J V V WITH SUNDAY MORNING EDITION V-/ WASHINGTON, D. C., THURSDAY, OCTOBER 1, 1925.-SIXTY-TWO PAGES. * Reports of Rifts in American I >dv J Unfounded. SMOOT AND MELLON ISSUE STATEMENT Meeting at White House Not to Ask Coolidge Approval. Emphatic denial was made at the White House today of public reports to the effect that an agreement had been reached for the settlement of the French debt to the United States. At the same time denial also was made of discord and division among the members of the American debt commission. This statement, although brief, was in language unmistakably plain, and while it was dictated by Secretary of the Treasury Mellon, head of the American commission, and Senator Reed Smoot of Utah, a member of the commission, the statement is known to have had the approval of President Coolidge. Its issuance fol lowed a conference between President Coolidge and the four members of the subcommittee of the American com mission who had been handling the settlement terms with M. Caillaux and his experts since the negotiations were opened here several days ago. The other two members of the subcom mittee present at the conference were Secretary of Commerce Hoover and Representative Crisp of Georgia. Full Statement. The statement. In full, follows: ‘‘The representation in the press on the supposed authority of a member of the French commission that agree ment had been reached and purporting to give the terms is entirely incorrect. Such a statement obviously did not come from M. Caillaux, because be fore the adjournment of the subcom mittee last evening the French mem bers were informed by the American members that their proposals were not likely to be accepted. & "There has been no difference of opinion whatever among the American commission. The visit to the Presi dent this morning is to inform him of the position of the negotiations. No proposal has been made accepta ble to the American commission and nope has been submitted to the Pres ident for his approval or disapproval.’’ When the subcommittee had con cluded its more than a half houy’s talk with President Coolidge and had made public its denial of the debt settlement story which is known to have come from what was supposed to be a re liable French source, it immediately went into session at the Treasury Building preparatory to meeting with the French commissioners at H o’clock. Report Accepted. Inasmuch as the report to the ef fect that terms for settlement had been reached emanated from what was supposedly an authoritative source, it was readily accepted as being true. And it was generally supposed today that the report’s publication that these important negotiations finally had been concluded and that the matter of binding the bargain rested only in the assent of President Coolidge, publica tion of the figures of the settlement and the terms of payment and other details, contributed largely to the re port being generally accepted. Although the White House state ment today explained that the visit of the subcommittee to the President this morning was merely to inform him of the progress thus far made in the negotiations, it is understood that the President was - advised in minute detail of the several proposals made by the French and of the posi tion taken by the American memlters. Those who are close to the President and are familiar with his attitude toward the settlement of debts owed the United States by foreign nations intimated today that they would be surprised if President Coolidge put his stamp of approval upon any such agreement as was reported to have been reached in this morning’s press. DELUGE TAKES 20 LIVES. * Many Injured in Japan’s Worst Rain in 50 Years. TOKIO, October 1 OP).—'Twenty 1 persona were reported killed today I and many were injured in the most torrential rainstorm in Japan in 50 ; years. At Yokohama 50 houses were crushed by a landslide and serious I damage also was reported lti the I Kanto district. LYNCHING CLAIM FILED. PUEBLA. Colo., October 1 OP).— The Mexican government has filed a claim for $50,000 against the United States as a result of the lynching here of Jose Gonzales and Santos Ortez on September 13, 1919. The men were hanged by a mob , after they were alleged to have ad mitted slaying a policeman. /'’Are they not” asks Dr. Fotherglll, ''complex of two conflicting ideas, which, in interpretation by the police and the doctors, lead to different con clusions and possibly to the unedify- Ing spectacle of doctors differing in public courts? "Many a highly placed personage after a banquet is suffering for him from an excess of alcohol, and yet is capable of performing his immediate duties of walking home, although he could not have managed a motor car." ads WORLD CONGRESS OPENS ITS SESSION Peace Not Law-Made, Kel logg Tells Body—Disarm All, Lobe Urges. Permanent universal peace must come from the hearts and under standing of the people, and not from mere ,dreams of statesmen. Secretary of State Frank B. Kellogg told the Interparliamentary Union at the opening session of Its twenty-third conference here today. Seated before Mr. Kellogg in the chamber of the House of Representa tives. which has been opened to the meetings of the union in Washington, were the law makers from 41 nations, and his warning that the world can not have lasting peace until It comes as a mandate from the people them selves was delivered with measured precision. “Universal peace has been the dream of statesmen,” the American Secretary of State told his distin guished audience, ’’for ages, but no one has yet found a specific. The cure must come from the hearts and understanding of the people. They must be taught to think In terms of peace; they must realize that there are better means of adjusting inter national disputes than the arbitra ment of war.” German Urges Unarmed World. Carrying further the movement for world peace, Dr. Paul Lobe, president of the German Reichstag, made an impassioned appeal for world disarma ment. “Germany is disarmed; now for the disarmament of the world,” he shouted amid the applause of the con ference. Dr. Wirth added that Ger many honors President Coolidge’s ef forts in this direction and hopes he will not relax until he has succeeded. Among the 300 or more delegates in the chamber at the time were those from nations which have only recently emerged from the tragedy of armed conflict, and Mr. Kellogg’s words were weighed heavily as he flung them at his audience. Dele gates from France sat immediately in front of those from Germany, while scattered elsewhere through the hall were representatives from every country that engaged In the World M'ar. “One of the prime objects of your organization is, I understand, to fur ther the cause of peace.” Mr. Kellogg began. “A noble aspiration, which will find sympathy in millions of hearts after the great world conflict! Nothing will contribute more cer tainly to peace than for members of the various parliaments and legis lative bodies to meet as you are doing to exchange views on your respective problems. Blames False Patriotism. “The principal causes of wars are national ambitions, national jealousies and racial hatreds. Knowledge and acquaintance remove suspicions, and intercourse softens animosities. Ar bitration and judicial settlements have a conspicuous place and are powerful instruments for peace, but there must be more than treaties and conventions. “There must be the spirit of tol erance and a willingness to submit to arbitration or judicial’settlements. How many nations have been plunged into war by a false sense of patriot ism! The permanent peace of the world depends on the spread of knowledge and the proper under standing of each other’s problems.” Mr. Kellogg reviewed briefly the evo lution of “representative democracies” in governments. They are powerful instruments in the maintenance of peace, but government, used in its broad sense as including all form of representative democracies, “is today facing as grave problems as at any time within the memory of any man now living,” he declared. Dangerous Forces at Work. “There are forces at work,” he con tinued, “for the disintegration of orderly representative government and for the establishment of class rule which may well give us serious thought. I am not an alarmist and I have absolute confidence in the in telligence and patriotism of the people of all those nations who have reared and maintained the marvellous insti tutions of the twentieth century. But I cannot be blinded to the forces which are working in many of the countries for the establishment of class tyranny. “It is not sufficient to label a gov ernment a democracy and simply pro vide for majority rule. A government must be stable, must insure the pro tection of law to minorities as well as majorities, the maintenance of In (Continued on Page 4, Column 6.) Smoking, Drinking, Bobs and Lipstick Banned for Brides By the Associated Press. LEIPZIG, Germany, October 1. — “I pledge to marry only a girl who does not smoke, drink, bob her hair or use a lipstick” is the novel promise exacted from applicants for membership in the Young Men’s Anti-Tobacco League. Twenty per cent of the cigarettes sold in Germany are smoked by women, the league says, and the fair addicts, seeing tht-ir com plexions fade, are resorting to the rouge pot and lipstick. HEEN REVEALS HIS INFORMANTS Says Survivor of Shenandoah Told Him of Conditions Before Break-Up. By the Associated Press. LAKEHURST, N. J.. October I. Benjamin O. Hereth, a Shenandoah survivor, and James Work, chief draughtsman at air station here, were named today by Capt. Anton Heinen, Zeppelin pilot, as the men who gave him the information upon ■which most of his testimony was based. The witness furnished the names on the direct order of the court. Rear Admiral Jones, the president, demand ing the names, since the men them selves had not come forward. Heinen, in withholding the names yesterday, said he thought they should be per mitted to volunteer the information. Approached by Hereth. The witness said Hereth came to him and told him what happened as the Shenandoah broke up. He could not say how long Hereth. a machinist mate, had been in the crew. AVork was the man, Heinen said, who told him that those at the station had been fighting the valve change on the Shenandoah all along, but without success. Asked as to who in the crew told him the men were afraid to make the trip on the Shenandoah, Heinen said a man named Buckley at the air station had told him secretly this. He was unable to say whether Buck ley was attached to the ship. Claims Hereth Was Sober. “Then of your own knowledge you know of no member of the crew who was afraid to make the trip?” asked Admiral Jones. "Unless Buckley was a member, no,” was the reply. “What was Hereth’s condition as to sobriety at the time he talked to you?” inquired Lieut. Comdr. Rosen dahl, senior surviving officer. “He could have sat here in this court with perfect propriety in the condition he was in,” Heinen returned. Replying to a hypothetical ques tion put by the court, Capt. Heinen said there were no outside forces in the air that could break up a dirigible unless the hull structure previously had been strained by internal pres sure. Type Case Assumed. The case assumed for the purposes of the question was that of a ship being tossed up and dropped in the air just as the Shenandoah was, go ing over the pressure height, then falling, then rising again and finally meeting a terrific up\v«Xd gust on the bow. “In your opinion was the Shenan doah structurally weakened by being torn from the mooring mast here on January 16, 1924?” asked Admiral Jones. “I don’t think so,” was the reply. This concluded the more than four hours of cross examination of Heinen. Before he left the stand he thanked the court for its courtesy In what he described as “the most awful and most difficult duty of my life.” He added that he would .like it known that there had been no ill-feeling on his part: that he had done- what he conceived to be his duty to state what was in his mind and his heart. Gave Clear Warning. The sign which the storm gave to the airship Shenandoah before she was wrecked Is one of the greatest danger signals known of in the air, Capt. Anton Heinen, former German Zeppe lin pilot, declared today before the naval court of inquiry hire. "When Lieut. Anderson said he saw (Continued on Page 5. Column 1.) Radio Programs—Page 54. SHIP BOARD SHEARS PALMER OF POWER Rescinds Authority Given Last Year—Coolidge Or ders a Full Inquiry. The broad powers delegated to the Fleet Corporation last year at the suggestion of I’resident Coolidge were withdrawn today by the Shipping Board. By rescinding resolutions intrust ing the corjioration with extensive ad ministrative powers. I’resident Leigh Palmer will revert more to the posi tion of an employe than an officer with independent powers over many of the details of the shipping administration. Coolidge Starts Inquiry. Determined to end the difficulties he has been having with the Shipping Board over the retention of Admiral Palmer as head of the Emer gency Fleet Corporation and to form ulate a new policy for operation and the future disposal of the Govern ment-owned ships to private interests, President Coolidge has appointed H. G. Dalton of Cleveland to make a thor ough investigation of the entire situa tion and to report to him. This action by the President was entirely unexpected, and those who are familiar with the long-standing and hitter row, which has divided the Shipping Board and which has so completely blocked the President's merchant marine policies, are inclined to think that the Executive has ap parently gained the upper hand. It is taken by some as the President's first definite step toward seeking legisla tion either to abolish the Shipping Board entirely or else relieve it of all its present administrative and execu tive authority. Halts Fight on Palmer. Whatever may be the future devel opments, one thing is taken as being positive in more than one quarter, and that is no move would now be made by the board toward accepting Admiral Palmer’s resignation. At least the board is not expected to take any such drastic step until after Mr. Dalton has completed his survey and has reported, and Mr. Coolidge has had time to express himself to Con gress regarding this problem. Mr. Dalton, who is a member of the firm of Pickands-Mather Co. of Cleveland, which engages extensively in shipping on the Great Lakes and in the iron ore and coal business, is a recognized transportation and engi neering expert. Those who recom mended him to President Coolidge as the man to get at the bottom of the trouble were loud in their praise. Among the group was Myron T. Her rick, American Ambassador to France, who introduced Mr. Dalton to the President yesterday morning. Pres ident Coolidge was sufficiently im pressed with Mr. Dalton after out lining to him his plan of action to turn the task over to him, but be fore announcing this fact he had Mr. Dalton to lunch at the White House, when they went into the matter more thoroughly. When the President and Mr. Dalton had reached an under standing and had whipped into shape a fairly definite idea of how they would proceed the President sum moned to the White House Chairman O’Connor and Admiral Benson of the Shipping Board and Admiral Palmer. It was then that the President an nounced his plan and his selection of Mr. Dalton. Few Details Given. The public announcement followed this conference, but it went into little detail. Mr. Dalton left for Cleveland shortly after this conference and indicated that he would return within a week or so. Just what course he would pursue Mr. Dalton did not announce, but it was said to be his purpose to inquire into the entire Shipping Board situa (Continued on Page 2, Column 4.) Unthinking Piety of British Talkers Proves-Irking to Ramsay MacDonald By tha Associated Press. LIVERPOOL, October I.—J. Ram say MacDonald, former Labor prime minister of Great Britain, the older he grows the more impatient he be comes over the expressions of piety he frequently hears. Mr. MacDonald made this announce ment yesterday while speaking at the Parliamentary Labor party confer ence. He said he had heard people at the conference talking In a very “From Press to Home Within the Hour 99 The Star’s carrier system covers every city block and the regular edi tion is delivered to Washington homes as fast as the papers art printed. Yesterday’s Circulation, 96,338 i/P) Means Associated Press. TWO CENTS. RAISING S-51 BEGINS WITH LITTLE HOPE IN MAY BE ALIVE Work Hastened as Weather Aids Operations for First Time in Days. LIFTING TO TAKE HOURS, WITH SUCCESS A GAMBLE Transfer of Submarine Under Water From Lines of One Ship to Another’s Necessary. By the Associated Press. UNITED STATES SUBMARINE I BASE, NEW LONDON. Conn.. October j 1. — Rescue work on the submarine j S-51 is progressing as planned. Rear Admiral H. H. Christy reported from , the U. S. S. Camden in a message j received at the submarine base today, j The weather is favorable. The message, timed at 11:25, said j slings had been adjusted to the wreck- ! ing ship Monarch, while the Century ! was getting into position. It will take the two wrecking ships j two or three hours at least to lift the ! submarine from the sea. officers here j believed. It is quite possible that a longer time will be required. Success a Gamble. The admiral's message was the sec ond received today, the first merely chronicling the arrival of the two wrecking lighters from Newport, where they had sought shelter from the rough weather and heavy seas that had delayed rescue operations for the past three days. It was pointed out that attempting to lift the S-51 with the cranes on the Monarch and Century was some what of a gamble. Each of these boats can lift only 100 feet at a time, while the submarine lies in 128 feet of water and probably has worked even deeper into the sand. When the two lighters get her as far as their hoists can bring her one of them will attempt to hold on and keep the sub marine at the 100-foot level until the other can take a new grip. The U. S. S. Camden, mother ship of the rescue fleet, will return to the submarine base as soon as rescue operations have been completed or abandoned. Admiral Christy expects to be back for the court of inquiry ordered by Secretary Wilbur for October 15. There was a belief here today that this court would be held at the submarine base instead of at the Charlestown navy yard, as originally reported. Efforts were renewed today to de termine whether any of the men trapped in the S-51 were still alive. Hope that any were alive was abandoned yesterday by Rear Ad miral H. H. Christy, in charge of the rescue operations, but, acting under orders of Secretary of the Navy Wil bur, he directed his forces to continue efforts to find the men alive or re cover bodies. In the attempt to raise the S-51 much depends upon whether certain of her compartments contain air or water. Pumping of air into the sub marine, in the hope that some may reach the men, will be continued. The order from Washington caused a switch in plans, for details of begin ning salvage operations already had been worked out. Pontoons were to be sent down and attached to the submarine and tugs were to be used to»help float her. But rescue, not salvage, was the order for today. Sixth Day Under Water. The men in the wrecked submarine have started on their sixth day under water. Officers at the submarine hose never have officially given up hope that some of them might be alive, but none has been found who actually believes that there is a possibility that any survive. Lieut. C. B. Momsen, commander of the submarine S-l, in explaining that his craft was involved in an incident with the fishing schooner Phyllis J. of Nantucket. Mass., has denied that the S-l violated the rules of the road, as charged by Capt. Dan Jackson of the schooner. Jackson said that a sub marine crossed his bow with clearance of only a foot or so some 17 hours be fore the S-51 was sunk by the City of Rome. The body of John L. Gibson, the first to be recovered from the S-51, now at Newport, will l>e shipped to Portland, Oreg., the home of his moth er, for burial. Gibson’s wife, who had been here making arrangements for the transfer, returned today to her home, in Bath. Me. Leo Firm, brother of Machinist’s Mate Rudy Firm of Klein. Mont., a member of the crew, was permitted to visit the rescue fleet today. " • - ASKS AID FOR RAILROADS. F. W. Sargent Pleads for Help of People for Lines. CHICAGO, October 1 UP). —Fred W. Sargent, president of the Chicago and Northwestern Railway, in a speech yesterday, said that not one of the 50 Western district railroads had earned 5.75 per cent since the war, that they needed $500,000,000 a year in investments for some years to come, and pleaded for the people to ’’fight with and not against their railroads.” Chilean President Resigns. BUENOS AIRES, October 1 UP). —A dispatch to La Naeion from Santiago, Chile, says President Alessandrl has resigned. enthusiastic manner about “subject races,” but that not one of these Indi viduals ever had devoted five minutes to trying to understand what he was talking about. In an Ironical tone the former premier exclaimed: "What a tremen dous value those delightful talkers are to the forces of reaction.” Were he a reactionary. Mr. MacDonald added, he would pray nightly that there might be more and more pious and un thinking talkers about. SEA AIRMEN URGE SEPARATE NAVAL ’ AVIATION SERVICE Veteran Predicts Fleet Dis aster in Emergency With Present System. CLAIM OTHER OFFICERS ARE LOATH TO TESTIFY Make Proposal as Remedy for “Dis satisfaction and Discourage ment” of Men. Grievances of naval aviation, with particular emphasis on control exer cised by non-flving officers, were given a frank discussion before the Presi dent’s Air Board today by two flying lieutenant commanders, who urged the creation of a separate air corps in the Navy as a remedy for the present conditions of "dissatisfaction and dis couragement." The officers who testified at the morning session were Lieut. Comdr. R. R. Paunack, chief of the flight divi sion of the Bureau of Aeronautics, and Lieut. Comdr. H. T. Bartlett of the Naval War College and recently in the plans division of the bureau. Testify Without Hesitation. Their testimony was given without hesitation and was considered exceed ingly interesting in view of the fact that the state of affairs as represented by the officers never had been as concisely presented before the other various aircraft investigations in the past year. The crux of the present system of naval aviation operation hinges on the dominance by the Navy Department over avaition. Both officers, however, made it clear that personalities were the cause. Are Veteran Flyers. The officers’ testimony was given much credence and authority by the fact that both learned to fly more than 10 years ago and now hold high positions in naval aviation. Lieut. Comdr. Bartlett at the conclusion of his testimony sought to drive home the necessity of flying personnel with this statement: “I firmly believe that unless our i naval air forces are trained and oper ated under command of experienced ; air men that the fleet will meet dls i aster when the next emergency arises." He was loudly applauded by the spectators, which drew from I Chairman Morrow the caution the • 1 approval or disapproval must net ’ * : expressed. Both officers In reply to < j from Senator Bingham of V | declared they know expressed unwillir., i ions on improven 1 ices before a ho o; i / i declared such /• not widespread, »• Bartlett said tb>- aj.. was excepted 1 ' ha/i j talked with inn. . the i affirmative replies ... esses i caused considerable intert is all I the Army witnesses had aii„ ,- ed in ! the negative on the question. Charges of Muzzling The particular t of j each witness by Senator Bingham on | the subject of open discussion by ! Junior officers is designed in connec- I tion with Col. Mitchell's charges of I "muzzling.” j Comdr. Paunack, in reply to ques ! tion from Senator Bingham, said j most of the naval aviators he knows j desire a separate corps in the Navy ! and that he never heard any one I "favor retention of the present sys | tern of operation.” The idea of a i united air force which gained some j circulation in the flying personnel ' now has faded out In favor of the ! separate corps, the witness said, j Under the present control of the Navy Department, Comdr. Paunack j said, naval aviation has no advanced j schools in tactical engineering or I other branches of flying such as the j Army has. “There are no tactics de | veloped to handle large air forces." he said, "and if we decided on this, we would have to send our officers to the Army school first.” Causes of Grievance. He told Rear Admiral Frank E. Fletcher, retired, of the board that the Navy could provide such institu tions. Among the grievances in naval avia tion, the witness testified, are "un sympathetic attitude f’rom the other branches, flight pay, control and com mand by non-flying officers, assign ment to aviation of officers without re gard to rank, uniforms, action by the department on the aviation matters with little reference to the Bureau of Aeronautics, lack of authority in the bureau equal to responsibility placed upon it. / Few Aviation Experts. Complete knowledge of aviation, the witness declared, cannot be ac quired in the normal period of spe cialization allowed in the line activ ity of the Navy. There are few ex perts in the department on’ aviation matters and specialization in this sub ject is necessary, he declared. If a system were evolved to Insure con tinuous aviation “duty "it would elim inate dissatisfaction now and would not adversely affect the efficiency of the fleet,” he said. Some admirals, continued the wit ness, are “reactionary” on the sub ject of aviation, while others are “seriously weighing the problem with the view to Improvement.” Present Fighting Force. The fighting force of naval avia tion today, said the commander, lies in the following units: Two fighting squadrons of 12 planes each; two spot ting squadrons of 12 planes each; one scouting squadron of 12 planes; one torpedo and bombing squadron of 12 planes arifl another similar organi zation with a strength of 6, but now operating with from 2 to 4 planes. The reserve naval aviation situa tion is, the witness said, "a hand-to mouth proposition.” There is a short age of flyers and when five were as signed to Annapolis recently "we had to dig around everywhere for them." he added. Field of Activity. Comdr. Paunack said it was his be lief that the field of naval activity be gins with the coast line, and. If this were thought by the Navy there would be no objection, in his opinion, to a separate air arm. He said if naval (Continued on Page 4 Column 1J