Newspaper Page Text
Mr Waller: I remember that was
done. but'it aeema to me. and I think that both Mr. Harrison and Mr. piaher were preaent, I am not sure about this, but I 'hink that in the tirst report h- siated that these lamps were about twenty per eent. short. Then after tbat report, I don t know who Benl it tO them. They agreed that a deduction Bhould be made eacn hill up to a certala time- I don t know what time. Mr Spinka: We atopped paymenl to the -xtent of 20 per eent., and I Bunpoae we ean flnd onl from tbe Miditor's book wl.at tbe time was from the time we atopped making the rednctlofl and tbe time are began. \fi.r this report was BOUl lB by Mr. Betta, evidently tbe auppoaltion is that report w-nt in. That is what we bave to work on, becauae we can't flnd OUl who notifled the Alex? andria Electric Light Company that we were going to atop this payment. The best proof is that we did atop the payment, and the Alexandria Blec tri'c Company notifled the city that they had made changes in the are lamps. Mr Waller (interrupting): I think on one occaalofl we had aome talk about suing them or Bometning like that, didn't we, Mr. Eisb.-r ' Mr. Fisher: JbbI lel Mr. Bplnka tinish. Mr Spinks: I want to bring out thta fact: this report to the Com? mittee on Llghl or the joint Com mitteea on Streets and Ughta. The supposi.ion is thal the electric com panv was notifled and wat did atop .avnienr. and the Ab-xandna Elec ;,,;. Light Company Comea back and makes the aUtemenl that they had made theae changea fmM am? pere lampa t., 7.6. Mr. Betta waa notifled. I suppose. because he came down again and Mr. Chler and Mr. BOttB? . Mr Mr Waller (interrupting): Mr. Dunn, Mr. Uhler and Mr. Betta wenl to tbe plant and I wenl down there with them. Ha had a teater there and they had a teat. Mr Spinks- Do you know that Mr Betta made a teat of tbeae llghta or an examination of the lamps'.' Mr Waller: I don't know tbat. Mr Spinks: To your knowledge he did not make any examination? Mr Waller: l don't know any tblnk about that. I was only tbere as a tnatter of euriosity. and I watked arouml down there while they were making the teat. I don't know what tbey did, but -he entire Light ( om IlliU(.e was notif.ed. The onb-rs were issued. but Iio one came but Mr 1'hler Som.'body came in the offlce and told me thal Mr. Betta would be down and for me to tiotify tbe committee Whether 1 w.ote for Mr Betta or not I don't recollect, but anyway he Benl word that he WOUlll l>e (IOWI1. Mr Spinks: That was after this letter was wiittea which we have heard raad? Mr. Waller: l doa ( know that. 1 remember thal he came and went down to the plant. and he brought a voung man with him. and they went down to tbe plant and put a tester on the machines, and while they were dolng that I walked around and' look.-d around. I did not know anythlng about it. and when they we're through there I walked up 10 treel wltk them and I went on home. Mr Spinks: Th-y n.-ver made any tesl of lamps to your knowledgel Mr Wall.r: I don't know. Mr Spinks: You don't whether thal waa after or before thia letter or not ? . , , i Mr Waller: No, I don ' 1 had a big envelope In my drawer that i used to put in the returna thal were made by the police for lamps out, and I had that in there and 1 showed that to Mr. llarrison tonighl when be was in there. Mr. Spinks. Was Mr. Chler pres? ent at the time? . Mr. Waller: No, thal was tonighl that Mr. llarrison came in there, Juat a few e.'.lillie- agO. Mr. Spinks: When Mr. Betta and 'you went down there Mr. I'lib-r was preaenl then? Mr. Waller: Y>-s. h.- waa there then. ,.. Mr. Spinks: I move that .Mr. I h b-r be requaeted to appear before the committee at ita ncxt ses,sion. He ,-an tell ua about this. This motion was unanimously car? ried. Mr. Plahei Referrlng to tnai in anawer to Mr. Spinks queation what do you mean? I want to gel In Ihe record whal you mean bj that, thal vou found amongat the papers. Mr Waller: f said that Mr. Har? riaon came In and asked me If I remembered when the paymenta were I. and 1 went and gol out that letter to Mr. Priee and gave li to him Today when thia other quea? tion came up I think Mr. Dunn was in there and l was golng through the envelope and when he saw the letter he made the remark thal you all wanted thal Mr. llarrison came ln and asked me ai.out thal tonighl and l gave it to him. Mr Plaher: \> Clerk ol the Qaa, do you bavc anything to do with the liubt company. except to take th.- reporta ol Ihe pollcemen as to the number of llghta oul and time oul and make them up0 Mr Waller: Yes, sir; thal l all I have to do with it. Mr Hill: Vou know all about the contracl of the clty with the Alexan? dria Electric Light Company? Mr. Waller: Y.-s. sir Mr. Hill: ln your oplnlon, do you think the Alexandria Electric Llghl Company is carrying oul Ita contraet with the city? Mr Fisher: That is not a prop.-r question Mr. Waller: I was going to sa> I dld not know because 1 know noth ing aboul eleetricity. 1 ean say that i havi never beUeved thal these lamps |UBl to our old lamps. There is alao ni there an account made out In Mr Ubler'a bandwrlting, where these ieductlona were made. Their bills would come in every time for tbe full bills leea the credll and when it got up to a certaln amount they would seitle. Mr. Price ought to be able to give you thal Information In hla of flce Mr. Hill: Do you know how much roa bave deducted from the light company? Mr Waller: 1 don't know that. irae. i don't carry that account. Mr. Harriaon: He atated that Mr. Uhler, repreaenting the gaa light com? mittee, and Mr. Dunn wenl to the indria Electric Company with Mr. Betta. I would like to know if that was before or after Mr. Betta made his report. Mr. Waller: That was after he made his tirst reporl and 1 think about the time that the lamps were said io have been ehanged. That's mv Ldea; 1 don't know Mr. llarrison: Ihe reaaon i asK ed that question was that Mr. Dunn made the atatemeal thal when Mr. Betts made hia offlclal reporl hia of ticiai connection with the matter end ed. and that anythlng thal happened after thal he knew nothlng ol That is why 1 asked that. Mr. Waller: My memory is treach eroua i '<'1! '' :ls ' facoUacl it. That is my impre-sion and the only r.-ason I remember that is that it made an impreaaloa on me as that was the tirst time I was there. Mr. Spinks: That must have been after the time the report was made. Mr. Waller: I may have written to Betts and ealled him down here. I don't rem.-inber that I may have done so. Mr. Piaher: In reference to the night on which you wenl down to the Mexandria Electric Light Company'a plant with .Mr. I'hler, Mr. Dunn. Mr. Betta and this young man he brought with him. vou left them on the eor ner of Lee and Ptini when they came away. di you? And if Mr. Betta made an] investigation of the llghta on the ,-ti-eets after that you know nothing about it? Would vou have known? Mr. Waller: Not necessarily: he may have conaldered me an ontaider. I know that he got off the ear down at th.- corner and came to tbe OfflCB and 1 wenl down there witli them. 11-' may have investigated the lamps afterwarda after I left. I don't know anvthing about that. Mr. Fisher: Before the city sold the traiichise Mr. Kirby was the city electrlclan. Wbal was your connec? tlon with him at that time? Mr. Wall.r: I had no conection with him. He was paid by the Aud Itor'a offlce, and I had nothing to do with it. Sometlmea if he had a small bill of aay forty or flfty cents I would pav that, and get my money back, but he did not come under the gas offlce. Mr. Spinks: I think you can en lighten us on this. You remember that it was nnderstood that the old Alexandria Electric Light plant which formerly belonged to the city. that the lights Were nOl to be Cllt off UI1 til the Alexandria Electric Company put their current on? Mr. Waller: 1 have heard that. I don't know it. Mr. Spinks: Do you remember that the old lights at this particular time, when the Alexandria Electric Company took poaaeaalon of the fran chise and lighted the streets. that our lights were cul off unknown to the offlcera of Alexandria city. they cut in on our wir.-s and used our wires without any notiflcatlon? Mr. Waller: 1 have heard that. I don't know that. The Chairman: Was Mr. Kirby under vour supervtsion.' Mr. Waller: Hfl was under the Bupervlaion of the light committee. I was clerk of the gas. I had noth ing to do with him. Mr. Kirby would be there whenever they asked him. bul I meant that as clerk of the gas I had nothing to do with him. Mr. Stansbury: On January 8. 1907, there was a resolution intro daced authorizing this Investigatlon and appropriating $200 for expenae of expert consultation, and it was paaaed. As far as I can discover? I can't see where there has been any report I don't think the committee has reported on it. Mr. Stansbury: On June 11, 1907, an ordinance to regulate tbe placing and stringing of wires l'or telegraph and telephone and electric light and power was offered by Mr. I'hler, read the flrst time and referred to the Committee on Light. Mr. Spinks: What disposition did they make of it'.' Mr. Fisher: It Ia now in the com? mittee. It is still before the eonimit l.-e. Mr. llarrison: Where is the report? Mr. Fisher: I have it in my office. 1 gol it as the Corporation nitorney when Mr. Crew.-s appeared before the committee with Mr. BOOthe. The Chairman: If it was referred to vou t<> glve an oplnlon, why did von nol turn it over to the commit tee? Mr. Piaher: I ha.l it hecauae II looked as if the committei Intended to acqnleace with the rlew of Mr. Crewes, and I Jusl had it, on the night on which we considered that ordinance the Alexandria Electric Company were nol even represented before the committee. My impres Blon is thal they said they deaired the ordinance paaaed. That it would give the righl to use other poles, and they would not have to erect their own poles, becauae this ordinance re quired the Joinl us.- of poles. I have B letter from Mr. BOOthe on the sub ject which I would like to ineorporat. Into this report. The Chairman: I would objecl to that. \|,-. Hill: We are not here tor that. We are her.- for one thing. You could fill up 1" pages about this We want lo tind out what we are getting and what we ought to get. \lr. statisbury: Here'a Bomethlng. on October 8, 1907, a communica tion from 'he Alexandria Electric Company relating to Inatallation oi new are lamps of 2.000 candle power. together with an oplnion ol I'hilan dei- c. Betts. conaultlng englneer, and a reaolution authorixing 'he Commlt 1.1 on i Ight to accept lamps ol . .5 amperes waa codbldered and recom mltted to the Committee on I.ig!.'. Mr. Spinks: No action has ever been taken since that time? The chairman: l underatand you want the Committee on l.ight to make . report? Mr. Spinks: Yes. sir; the light committee of thia committee makes tbe report . Mr. Betta did nol atate thal the 7.5 ampere light was a 2,000 candle power light Mr. Stansbury, bere in your book it says, on Octo ber 8 1907, a communicatlon irom the Al-xandria Klectric Company re latlng to the Inatallatlon of new arc lamps ot 2,000 candle power. tO gethcr with an opinlon of Phllander C Betta, conaultlng englneer, and a reaolution authorialng the Committee on Lighl to acc. pt 7..", amperea was cbnaidered and racommltted to the Committee on Light. Have you any knowledge as to this Commltte on Llghl ever baving reported back to the City Council under this reaolu? tion? , Mr. Stansbury: 1 have no recol lection of it Mr. Spinks: If there had been such a reporl it WOUld be in your ice ords. and if Council took any action it would be in th.- minutes, wouldn'l it? Mr. Stansbury: \ es. sir. and nat urailv there would have been conaid erable discussion about it. The Chairman: Hetween now and the ncxt s.-ssion of this committee will vou look over your rccords and aee If there is anythlng in the min? utes about this report and reaolution oi October B, 1907 \tr. atansburv: Yes, sir. Mr. Harrison: 1 ha\. had Mr. Wall.-r l.-ok among his papera and he cannot flnd thia reporl to the committee or of the committee. The Chairman: We want Mr Stanabury to look over his books and give us thia information on Monday night. wh.th.-r this resolution or re queal from the Alexandria Electric Company was ever adopted. We would like to have the secretary wrlte to Mr. I'hler and ask* him to appear before the committee on Mon daj liight. as a witneaa Mr. Hill: Mr. Betts will be here then. The committee thereupon adjourn ed to Monday night. June 6, 1910, at th. same place at 8 o'clock P M At the Offlce of the City Auditor, in the City of Alexandria, Va., Mon? day. June 6. 1910, 8 o'clock P. M. The committee this night met pur suant to adjournment. Present: Francis F. Marbury. Esq., Chairman; F. C. Spinks. Esq., J. M. Hill, Esq., and L. E. Uhler, Esq.. members of the committee; H. Noel Garner, secretary of the said eommittee: D. B. Stansbury. Esq., Clerk of Council; S. P. Fish .-r, Baq., Corporation Attorney, and Pbllaoder Betta, Esq.. who appear ed ;it the reqnaal of the committee. The Chairman read the resolution of Council under which this commit? tee was appolnted, and a letter from I..O P. Harlow, Esq., attorney for the Alexandria Electric Light Company, requeetlng that he be fnrntebed with a copy of tba teatlmony taken b.fore this committee, which letter and request was on motion of Mr. Spinks. aeoondei by Mr. Hill, laid on the table. Mr. Spinks: I offered this reaolu? tion which you have heard read. ask ing that an expert be employed, and Mr. Hill and some of the members of ihe committee, knowing that Mr. Betts had been employed some time past as an expert. concerning some of tbe controversy existing between the City Council of Alexandria and the Alexandria Electric Light Com? pany auggeated thal we employ Mr. Betts to give us auch assistance and services as he could. The Chairman: Mr. Betts is here and any questions that you want to ask bim, and any information that he can give you he is here to give. Mr. Spinks: When this eontraet was entered into between the City Council of Alexandria and the Alex? andria Electric Light Company. they were to furnish electric lights, ac cordlng to this eontraet which 1 will read. and request that it be not re? ported, as it is already before the committee: (The contraet referred to was here read by Mr. Spinks.) Mr. Spinks: Now, Mr. Betts. you have read over this contraet, and It is for the furnishing of necessary electric light. The contracl aaya: "All of which arc lamps so furnished shall be of the latest type enclosed alternating arc of 2,000 candle pow? er." I want to ask you If in your examination you found these lights to be 2.00(1 candle power lights of the latest typa. Mr. Betts: There is no auch thing. I know that is in the contraet. and it is v.-ry foolish. but not different from g greal many other contracts that have been made for the same pur poae. I want to refor back to my re? port. but I will say that at the pro? ceedinga of the Natlonal Electrical Associatioti in 1894 a committee dr.-w up rules which were better than the old candle power rules, but even that was not satisfactory, and in 1907 a new committee was appointed to draft more satisfactory rules for street lighting. and even tln'y have not been satisfactory. 1 want to take up this Mr. Spinks (int.-rrupting) : This contraet stat.-s that Mandeville. his Bucceaaora and asslgna, entered into ? contracl with the Clty Council of Abxandria to furnish arc lights of the latest type enclosed alternating arc of 2,000 candle power. Did we get at that time the lamp that was the latest type lamp on the market? that lamp. as you know, was the 6.6 ampere lamp. Mr. B"tts: No. that was not; but thal is not the condition now. This is quoted from my report to the Clty Council dated May 7. 1907. in which the Council practieally asked If they w.-re gettlng what was due them: "In the first place, I wiah to state that the term 8.000 candle power mual not be taken literally. but mual be taken as a name of the bigbesl of str.-et illumination" Mr. Spinks: That is the highest atandard. in other worda it was th' wav in which you spoke of the besl arcligbl made for this purpose at the time? Mr. Betts: \es, Sir. v\ nni mr old city plant was tirst installed an.l for many reare afterwarda there were two lamps 2,000 candle power lamps and 1,200 candle power lamps. lt did BOl make any diffetence what the ayatem was, and, of courae, there were a good many Byatema the Bch uyler and the Bruah 'here have been seven <>r eighl aystema, all aalng 9.6 ampere for the 2,000 candle power lamp in s.-ries. The so-callcl 1,200 candle pow.r lamp took about 6.8. Mr. spinks: Thai was the alter? natlng are? Mr. Betts: No. that was tbe di ,e i current. There were only two kinds of lamps. There were lots of makera of lamps, of courae, bul so far as the resnl's attain.-d were con cerned they were practically the same. Two thouaand candle power is a name. so far as that is concern ed; just a wa) to call It. That was th.- highest 2,000 candle power. Twelve hundred candle power i- the other. This blue print. which 1 have made here Bhowa that. l.ci in-' ex nlaln thal to you. . .. illere followa explanation oi oiue print.i Mr. Spinks ( cont inuing >: In other worda a 6.6 lamp would not glve as much light as a 7.5? Mr. Betts: 0, no, sir. There are three claasea of lamps that are ased for str-et purposes. That 2,000 can? dle power is Jual taken as a name. That has goiie out of s.-niee and Ia not being us.d anywhere exeepl in a few tOW-a where they bought up some of the appllancea of some city. Mr Spinks: Do you know of your own knowtodge whether Alexandria city has been equlpped with 7... am? pere lights? Mr. Betts: Certainly. Mr. Spinks: What lamps are they and when w.-re they put np? Mr. Betts: The flrst lamps put in were 8.6 ampere lamps. Later on as ? resull of thia report I made ? Mr. Spinks (interruptingl: Do vou know of your own knowledge thal these new lamps were put in" Mr lletts: Y'-s. sir. Mr. Spinks: How many of th'-m. Mr. Betta: All of them. Mr. Spinks: Mr. Kirhv has said thal the new lampa ware not put in. That about lif'y new lamps were _, bul that all the r-st of the lamps were 'he old ones. Mr. Betts: Th- frame of tbe lamp don't make the lamp. Bome aea lampa were put np, bul the colla in all the lampa were new. That is the part that makes it poaaible to bave 7 ', amperea in a lamp. You could not us.- the oi.i lamps aaleaa they were rebullt. As a matter of fact by ihe time the company had made up its mind to change these lamps they w.-re in so bad shap- that they bad -,, gei new ob< i. They were bdrn Ing up 'h>- top holden of the carbon and th"' gas caps. and about tw.-nt;. ol the lampa were burned out. Bo they ordered about twenty new lampa, and then ordered these colla to replace 'he old colla in the lamps. so that th" lamps w.-re then 7..", am? pere lamps. They are the sam name. but the n.-w coils are in I and in some cases they had to have new holdera and new gas caps. There is a littie bit more about that?I think that there is some place in here where I stated that this lamp was the same as that used in Colorado Springs. Here it is. (Reads from report, which is omitted on direction of committee.) Mr. Spinks: In the Colorado Springs case what was the ampere of those lamps? Mr. Betts: Six and six-tenths. And as a result 7.5 amper.- lamps were put in. Mr. Spinks What was the deeision of the arhitrators in the Colorado Springs case? Mr. Betts: Th.-y made th.-m ac e-pt. They made the company ac e.-pt a 80 i"-r c-nt reductlon. Mr. Spinks: And I understand they wera holding back some money and the interest on that amounted up to about 10 per eent? Mr. Betts: For a good many years they paid the bills without question, and' then somebody did question it and thay employed experts on both Bides. lt is th>-cebdirated case. Here it is in my report. ( Reads from re? port; omitted as directed.) Mr. Spinks: That ls Just the posi tion we are in here. Mr. Betta: That I will agree to. but not from this standpoint. I want to read in this connection some cor respondence which I have here. This flrst letter which I read is from Mr. Waller and is dated August 23, 1907. (Here reads letter; omitted as di? rected.) Here is a letter from the company, dated August 20, 1907. (Read, but omitted from report. I H.re is my reply to the letter from Mr WaBer; it is addressed to J. B. Waller and is dated September 10. (Omitted as directed.) Mr Spinks: You did not Btate thal that was a 2.000 candle power lamp, but that it is generally con sidered so. Mr. Betts: Yes. sir. There are some thtnga I want to state about that letter Mr. Spinks l int.-rrupting) : That was the neareat thing to it. was it? You don't state that it was. Mr. Betts: No, sir, because I hav prevloualy stated that there is no sucli thing as a 2,000 candle power lamp. Mr. Spinks: My reason for saying this is: We are not electricians, nom of us. I was a member of the Clty Council at the time when this con? traet was made. Mr. Mandeville stated to this Council tbat they would furnish 2,000 candle power Mr. Betts: He was talking in the old faahloaed way. Mr. Spinks: He agreed to glve us something he could not give us? Mr. Betta: I don't suppose he ever thought of this Mr. Spinks: Don't you thlnk it would have been a more honest thing on the part of the original company to ha\e put in a 7.:. ampere liRht tn stead of a 6.6 ampere light? Mr Betts: You did not get it at flrst Not until the time they put in the new coils. in this letter to Mr. Waller. which is dated Septembet 1". vou will s'-e that, and in the latter part of OctOber Mr. Darrah came up to me and asked me for B letter and here is a copy of my letter to him. I' is addressed to A. J. Darrah. (Read letter, which Ia omitted.) You see what I said: "You are in a position to live up fully to the terms of your contraet." The point I want to make is this: Some ehanges were made in tbe arc lampa and regulatora, and one evening I thlnk Mr. Dunn telephoaed me and 1 ciune over and WSBt down to the plant, and I carried down an ampere meter and checked them up on their switch board. and I was sat lafled the metera read withm a wy small fraction of being correct. Mr Spinks: Seven and flve-tenths? Mr. Betts: Yes, I found thOM UV Btrumenta correct. Th.-y ware usinn 7.6 amneres. Mr Spinks: This time is the oniy time aft.-r tbe electric light company had been Btarted, and they had stated thal niev had complied with tba rac ommendationa that you made .and this examination of their plant was made in tbe night time? Mr. Betta: No. sir. I made a good many. Mr. Spinks: You recoiiiineiid.-.l that it be aceepted? Mr. Betts: I recomniedtied to Mr. (Jhler, the chairman of the Light Committee, that the work be acc-pi ed. The work that had been done up to thal time. Mr. Spinks: I think you said that th.-re is BUCh a thing as boosting the current. Dld you make an examina? tion of the lights on tba streets? Mr. Betts: We looked at them. vou can't ezamlne the lamps. W-' BBtlafled ourseives that there were 7.5 amperes going through those cir cuita. , , . Mr Spinks: You don t know wi other since that time there has been 7..". going through? Mr. Betts: Oh, yes. Those lamps have been operated at 7.6 amperea. No queation about that. I am telllng ron they are 7.6 amperea. i agree with vou that the service has not been Batlafaetory- That it never baa been st'tisfaciorv. A short time gftei his. along in December. I got a let er from Mr. Matthews. Here is a etter addresaed to Meaara. Matthews md Mclver. i don't consider this is irhate correapondence between my <elf and the company nec-ssarily. :',-el that 1 have always occupied an mtirely nnblaaed ground in this thing in aeting for the city onginal lv. You will flnd that jiil the experta will sav that I have taken the ground which is the only ground to take. The original lamp was not the light that was agreed to, and I said that when the 7.5 lamp was install-'d tbat then tbe company would be in a posi tiou to live up to tbe terma ol Ita eon? traet 1 had a talk some time in the middie ot the aummer with theae peo? ple and I said that this company had never been from the start bandled satisfaetorily, and I had a littie OOn reraatlon with them one day with re gard to taking up the manageni'-nt of tbe company in some other way. On luguat 20 I wrote this letter in which ron will flnd tba advice i gave them. (Letter read, bul omltted) And I ss letter from them in replyi lt . a letter from Mr. Mclver and is in reply to my letter of Auguat 20 (read and omltted); thal letter is aigaed ? w. L Matthews/' and is dated De? cember ?". I replied to tbat on De? cember 7. and addraeeed H 'o Phll ,i delphlB. They did not receive tbat lett.-r and 1 got it back. and her letter dated December I I, to Mr. Mat? thews. Afterwarda they agreed that i was to act for them In the matter of the examination of the condl bere and was to report to them and make such recomniend.it ions a- 1 thOUg ITJ and make thi- t ?? port onee a month and aead Media with anv recommendatioiis 1 saw fit tO make. and if they saw fit they would adopt the r.-coinmenda tiotis. I had no authority to order anything. I was only to report the conditions. Mr. Spinks: They wanted to em ploy you in an advisory way? Mr. Betts: Yes, sir. Mr. Spinks: And you would make such recommendations as you thought neeessary from your knowledge of the conditions? Mr. Betts: Yes. sir Mr. Spinks: That was the extent of your employment with the Alex? andria Electric Company after you vfere employed by the city? Mr. Betts: Yes, slr. Mr. Spinks: Here in this report from which I am reading (see page :, i ? The Chairman: As a memb.-r of the Gas Light Committee I re? member a letter read before the com? mittee stating that they were golng to put in th'-se lamps and asking the comlttae to sign a letter stating that th.-v would not make any more eom plalnl if they pul them in. Mr. Betts: No, they w.-re not put iu. Mr. Darrah put in some coils her.-. but th.-y were l.l amperes. Now this witneaa has beea employed by the electric light company for th" paat couple of yeara Mr. Betta: Mr. Kirby don't know anything about It. Mr. Spinks i still reading): My information is that Mr. Betts took for granted that all the lamps had been Cbanged to the s.-ven ampere type, and he so DOtlfied the committee and then the company stopped paying re bates. One-third of the lamps they have now still retain the old coils. Th.-y hav- never I.n changed. Mr. Betts: I don't believe he knows anythlng about it. He was nol employed at that time. He learn ed what he knows aboul it from Lloyd. I want you to understand my position. I am not here to defend this company. I want you to under tand this: These people delayed for a long time doing what they were ?pppeeed to do and what they could have done. but they did it Bnally. I am not saying that the compuny is now satisfactory. I want to ahow you that the recommendatlona i made which would have made it satisfact? ory have not been carried out. You want to get my onblaaad opinion. You want the truth. I can't say they did not make those changes. Mr. Spinks (reading further): What I meant was could we not test those ouraelvea or would that be a good test? Mr. Kirby: Yes. the on? ly test you could make would be for the wattage <>f the lamp. Mr. Spinks: That would give it to us anv night that we took it; say tonight, or tomorrow night, or any night what the ahOItage was? Mr. Kirhv: Yes, sir. Mr. Spinks: The voltage at the plant could be raised, could it* Mr. Kirby: The ampere at the plant could be raised and low ered al will; it has been done. Mr. Spinksl of Mr. Betts): s that a correct statement? Could that be done? Mr. Betts: It could not. Mr. Spinks: You could increase tlu voltage. I want to ask this: How do vou flgure the watts? Don t you multlply the amperes by the volt? age? Mr. Betts: Yes. sir. Mr. Spinks: If I had a 10 volt current on a 7 ampere lamp, that would be tftg watts? Mr. Betts: Yes, sir. Mr. Spinks: What would that be in candle power? . Mr. Betts: There Is no relation betweea them. Mr. Spinks: Th'-se questions and answers I have read you were from an employee of the plant. Mr Betts: Mr. Wicker down there knows about that. You don't know anythlng about it. You can't make those lamps operate with f. amperes. 1 can tell you what the trouble is, the lamp is too aluggtah. Mr. Spinks: You Will say that is not the besl type of lamp? Mr Betts: Yes, sir. That s my opinion. . Mr. Spinks: It is not according to our terms in our contraet for the latest Improved lamps? Mr Betts: H.-re's the point: 1 don'l think you otight to go back to the time when they made the con Mr. Spinks (interrupting): Sup aoae we ellminate the eontraet, where would we be then? Mr Betta: They have Buffered a penaltv of .'o per eent. Tbey dld not put ln the right kind of lamps. bul tbey ehanged tbem afterwarda. Now, has' it been aatlafactory bIbcc tbe cbange? That hi tbe queation at to siie You say the lamp is not BBtla faetoiv and I Bgrefl with you. but that part has been aettled. They bave made the cbange and put in what was BUPPOSed to he the right lamp but is tbe lighting aatlafactory? You aay no. I agree with you. What is wrong With it? That is the matt.-i to be determlned now. and la U> be decided after an examination of the conditiona. The regulatora were Bloggtah; tbey dld nol work aatia factorlly. We kepl touchlng them witb a lead pencil that night down there and you could aea thal the In Btrumenl would rary. The regula tors' w.-re sluggish. \ir. Sptaka: Suppose the meter Bhowed T.5 amperes and tbe volt meter Bhowed Mr Betts: Never mind that. if you have the right current through that clrcuit. , Mr. Spinks: Suppose they dld not have it? Mr Betts: 1 ney oiu ?* . n?> < ?"?? we made that teat; and I was there a couple of times a month or BO after that but I have not been in tbe plant since last June. The point is this: that they did cbange tbe lamps when it was decided that they would have to be ehanged from 6.1 ampere to 7.5, Tbey did I bat. Some n.-w lamps w.-re put in to make up for the onei burned out. Th.- t-.-st had coils put in. Mr. Spinks: If you were going to buv 7.7. ampere lamps would you BC cept the old Fort Wayne lamps that bad been 6.6 ampere lamps recolled as a 7.1 ampere lamp? Mr. Betts: Certalnly. Mr. Spinks: Would you not rather bave a new lamp than to have an old lamp rebuilt? Mr Betts: There is no difference in the lamps. They are all right if thev have the new coils in them. Mr. Spinks: They did not put up new lamps? Mr. Betts: They put up new coils. What i~ tbe difference? Mr. Spinks: Buppoaa tbeae new w.-re put in; you don't know that they ha'.e not been ehanged since last year to 6.6 ' Mr. Betts: I don't think that baa .?.,.,., don.-. becauae the lamp- would ,?,t burn properly. They would biirn .,ut, beeldea that. The Chalrman: Tbey are burning out now. Mr. Betta: They may nsve pui them back: I don't know that. They may have taken thoae colli <?"* and put in others; I don't know that. Mr. Spinks: Mr. Kirby tei thal tbere ar<- still aboul oae-thlrd of the lampa with S.6 ampere coils ln them He waa rlghl there. He said when l aaked bim, 'hat a man up on his business llke Mandevllle would have known thal 'her.- were no smh lamp as the on- this contraet calla for. You will agree that be kn'-w that? Mr. B'-tts. lb- ought to have. Mr. Spink.-: I want to look at 'his book her--. You would take this as an authority on electricity? Mr. Betts: When was that pub lished? Mr. Spinks: In ItOS. Mr Betts: Yes, up to that time. Mr. Harrison: It strikes me that what this committee wants is this: It has been stated by one of the wit neaaea ealled before this committee? a former superintendent of the Alex? andria Electric Light Company? that the Alexandria Electric Light Company was still using thirty-flve of the old 6.6 ampere lamps and 33 1-3 per eent of the old wire formerly used by tbe city plant, also that when there was any agltation in the City Council ln regard to these lights a greater current would be tumed on and as soon as things quieted down. current would ba cnl down for tba reaaon tbat the old lamps would not atand tbe greater current. What would you ndvtoe 'his committee to do to ascertain if this is correct? Mr. Spinks: Here is what this book BBya about it. ( Reading.) Mr. Betts: That's an open are; tbat is not tbe same thing at all. There || no eiiclos.-d are lamp like that. Mr. Spinks: This don't say that there is a I '2 ampere light. Mr. Betts: That is an open are lamp and has nothing to do with this. There is no 2,000 candle power lamp except those flaming are lights for use in str.-et lighting purposes. These lamps you have read about are open are lamps, but not eneios.-.i Mr. Spinks: Is the Westinghouse lamp a better lamp than this? Mr. Betts: Oh, yes. A far better lamp than this. Mr. Spinks: Both Lloyd and Mr by have said here Mr. Betts: The lamp is 7.5 am pere light. The system has been ehanged. and I don't care what either one of these men have to say about it. Thev don't know anything about it. I will state that the system as a whob' has been ehanged to 7.5 am? pere llghta. Whether it is satisfac torv or not is something else. I want to show you some correspondence [ have had about these lamps. Mr. Waller came up to see me a week or so ago, and I asked him whether tbe way of trimming the lamps had been ehanged, and Iu- said no. You will see from the letters here and from the reporta I made '<> 'he company that | ealled the attenlion of the com? pany in three separate reports in as many conaecutive months to this matiiier of trimming the lights, and thev have never paid any attention to it to my knowledge. They had not up to a year ago. This correspond ence i bave here ahowa about that. Mr. Fisher: This committee asked Mr. Kirby 'his queation: The Chair? man: But this present company did not btiy any lamps? Mr. Kirby: No, sir; they are burning the lamps, the same ones that were here when they came here, with the ezceptlon of flf teen on King Street and some others, the rest of the lamps, say about one third of the lamps in use, are still tlie same that they found here. They bave booated up the current, but the lamps won't stand it. The success thal I made of the lights while 1 was there was in eutting down the am? peres and trimming the lower carbon down. We had an expert here to look into the tronble and he said he could not do anvthing. Then I had the station cut down the current, and after that I had no trouble. The Committee on Light knows that I had on.- lamp out during the year from March 10th to Mareh 20th, and Mr. Uhler said that was a very good ree ord 1 remember he said you had better have a tlcket made out and bave it framed. But the restilt. that r.sult was from eutting down the current. You have to do that for the lampa won't stand it. What do you think about thal? Mr. Betts: I have some corres pondence here which shows about thai Her.- is a letter dated January 10, 1909. This agreemenl that I had with the company was to commence here with them about the flrst of January, I9o0, aud this refera to the eoils of tbe arc lamps. I gave him this Information about the carbona on thia occasion and again in February and Bgaln ln March, and they never pald any attentlon to that. You will aee In thia letter that I recommend new carbon bolders, bul tho new holdera were never gotten. to my knowledge. I don'l believe they were ever gotten. Mr. Fisher: You stated that if a aatlafactory lamp of 7.6 ampere were installed that that would be meeting the requlrementa of this contraet? Mr. Betts: Yes, sir. Mr. Fisher: Do you conalder the lamp th'-y hav.- a prop.-r lamp'.' Mr. Betts: No. sir. Mr. Fisher: Do you think th.-y an- 7.6 ampere? Mr. B.-tts: Yes, sir. Mr. Fisher: But they are not proper lamps? Mr. B.-tts: No, sir. Mr. Fish.-r: The llgbl we are now gettlng from them is nol aufBcienl to warranl Council In Baying that the contraet has be.-n carried out? Mr Betta: No. sir. Mr. Spinks: I asked Mr. Kirby it the lights w.-re not cbanged back again a;id he said not to bia know? ledge. He aaid thal there was a requialtlon s.-nt ln for Bfty lamps and thal Bfteen of them were put up on King Stt'.-et, and thal these n.-w lamps were plac.-d in various paita ol the town but that about one-third of the lamp- nere the old lamps we al waya had. Mr B'-tts: They hav all been cbanged. The coll baa been changed and thal Ia what makes the lamp Mr. Spinks: Don't you think it would have be.-n much b.-it.-r if they all had been new lamps'.' Mr. Betts: n don't matter. Mr. Spinks: Why was it n.-c-ssary to get Bfty aew lamps If all the old lamps would have done after the colla were changed? Mr. B.-tts: They had been burned up. aome of them. Mr. Spinks: Do you know whetb me of them hav nol be.-n burn? ed up aince June a year ago; aince last June? Mr. Betta: I don't know anyttung aboul aince laat June. Mr. Spinks: You can't state what ha taken place in tbe Alexaadrla Electric Company since June a yeai ago? Mr. Betta: No, sir. Mr. Spinks: This reaolution un d.-r which this committee has b'-.-n appointed requirea the committee '< r.-port what action shall be taken againal 'his company. What do ;..,.: recommend to this committee? Mr. B'-tts: l adi toe the commiuee to recommend to Council that tbe company be aerved with a notlce to tbe effect that the lamps are nol tory; that the service bj nol aat Igfactory; you don't care about the lamps. that the service has BOt :." and is not BBtlafactory. BBd requeai or demand, which ever la n.aaary, that rtepa be taken to correct 'he ae Mr. Fisher: Could you go over the line here and point out in teebnical terma In what reapecta they are nol BBtlafactory? , , Mr. Spinks: The.report has al ready been made. Mr. Betts: That r-port is as to the condition that exlated 'hen. That don'* show what th.-condition is now, of course. That makes certain rec ommendations which. if adopted, will make the aervice aattofaetory. Mr. Spinks: You don't know that tboaa recommendationswere adopted? Mr. Fisher: That's my tdea about this, that we get the condition as it is today. You don't know that the recommendation that you made, for instance that the wiring that you rec ommended to be done, was done? Mr. Betts: I know it was not done up to a year ago. Mr. Fisher. Could you get this information together for the commit? tee as to the condition existing to? day? They could not have changed this condition in the last three weeks, could they? Mr. Betts: No, sir. That thing there where he said they had re duced 'he current in the circuits; tbe] had no business to do that. Mr. Fisher: You have had exper ience in all these matters? Mr. Betts: Yes. sir. Mr. Fisher. Is it customary for th.- engineer at these plants to keep a log? Mr. B.-tts: Yes, sir. Mr. Fisher: You could take that and see what the service has been for the past year? Mr. Betts: I don't know what that log ahowa. I don't know wheth? er the current taken by the arc light circuit is shown. or whether it shows how much current was furnished to the arc lights originally; but from the reoords I could flgure out whether a less amount of wattage is furnished to the circuits now. Mr. Fisher: Could they falsify the log then? Mr. Betts: They would not do that. Mr. Fisher: Don't you think lt would be beifer for this committee to have a report of the condition exist? ing today. just as you reported the condition three years ago? Mr. Betts: Yes. I *o. Have we the right to look at the books of this company? Mr. Fisher: Yes, sir. Under the ordinance. Don't you think it would be better for the committee to have this report. In the ordinance it states that we shall have authorlty Mr. I'hler (interruptingl: They don't object to your looking at the books. Mr. Betts: The third report that I made is dated March 24th. Mr. Spinks: Here is a letter to Mr. Priee in which they stated that they made the change Mr. Betts (interrupting): That change is all right. They called on me commencing with the flrst of Jan uarv to give them advice to make these conditions satisfactory. No at tontion was paid to them and you will see that I made the same recommen? dation for three months successively. Mr. Fisher: In January. 1909, they called on you for advice? Mr. Betts: Yes, for further ad? vice. The service was not satlsfac tory, not even after the change was made that is set out ln that letter. The lamps were changer to 7.5, but the service was not satisfactory. That letter don't say that the service is satisfactory. The system was chang? ed so that letter says. and about a year later they came and asked me to make a report and that was becausc the service was not satisfactory. Mr. Spinks: Do you know any thing about the ordinance that waa presented to the Clty Council of Al? exandria by the electric light com pany stating that the recommenda tions had been complied with, and re quesfing the city to adopt this ordin? ance. That ordinance came into thc Clty Council and I think that Mr. [Jhler had the matter recommited to ti,.. committee on Light. Mr. Uhler: They asked to have the City Council adopt the light 7.5 ampere as the regulation lamp. lt is now in the hands of the eommittee. The Chairman: Was that at Mr. I'hler's request that it was commit ted? Mr. Chler: Yes. sir. Here is a letter on the subject. Th.- Chairman: No action has ever been taken? Mr Chler: No. sir. It is in the hands of the committee. This letter here came from Pennsylvania on Aug itst Ji-th. The reply made to that was thar the matter would be sub mitted to th.- Corporatlon Attorney u to what.beaiing it would have on the eontraet. That is as far as we got with that. Mr. Spinks: The city never did aceept that? Mr. Chler: No. sir. I asked to have that paper recommltted. Mr. Hill: Are these lamps of the city of the lat.-st iinpt'oved type of lamp at the preaent time on the mar ket. ls there any better lamp manu factured today than this" Mr. Betts: Yea, sir. Mr. Hill: Do you think the Alex? andria Klectric Company is furnish? ing the city proper light according to the eontraet made with the cify? Mr Betts: I do not Mr. Hill: Did I understand you to sav there is at the present time a lamp on tlie market that would carry out the eontraet made by the Alex? andria Klectric Company with the city? Mr. Betts: It depends on what you would Mr. Hill i interrupting): Can tbe Alexandria Electric Company have a lamp made thal will carry out the eontraet they made with the city? Mr. Betts: Yes. sir. Mr. Hill: Do you think we are getting as good a light as other cities according to our eontraet with the Alexandria Klectric Light Company? Mr. Betts: No. sir. Mr. Fisher: You sta'ed in your former report that some of theae wires which were then in use Bhould be taken down. Haa that been done? Mr. Betts: I' had not been done up to a year ago. Mr. Fisher: Is that wlre danger ous to be in uae? Mr. Betts: I would not say so. II did not improve things and it don t look so nlce. if he bad not agreed to take down everything and had not uld that tbe wlrea were nol aatlafac? tory 1 would say that there wasnot anything to be aald about lt. Noae of'those recommendatlona i made aboul the wlrea bave been done; there eapeclally on King Street, those wires are dangeroue, where those ir.,n wlrea are 'ber- There are a lot of iroti wir-s of the Home Tele phooe Company there. If those tele nhone wlrea were copper in accord ance with the more moaern pracnc i Bhuld say the wire was not danger ous. My r'-conimendation to the com niitiee is thal 'he company be serv-.l with notice that the service is not i.tory, and that it he given :< deflnlte time to inform the Council what it would do. In the tir~> place they would hav.- to r.-ply Whether th'-y thought the s.-nice was right or not Mr. Fisher: Were th" 7.6 ampere lampa gotten by thia new electric company and Installed? Mr. Betts: I don't think the new company has done anythiag. All those lamps were changed to 7.5 am? pere lampa when i was here hefore, I don't mean the frames necessarii}, but the lamps were changed. Mr Fisher: Could you "?? ?-6 ampere lamps on the enme circuit with 7.5 ampere lamps? Mr. Betts: No. sir. Mr. Fisher: Regardless of the current? Mr. Betts: You could not use lt. That settles the queation. Mr. Hill: Are these lights now used by the Alexandria Electric Com? pany 2,000 candle power lights? Mr. Betts: No; there are uo such things for street lights. Mr. Hill: They made that con t ract. Mr. Betts: Of course that has to be dotermined what you would do about it. The Colorado Springs peo? ple finally made them put ln other lamps Mr. Hill: Dld their eontraet call for 2,000 candle power lamps. Mr. Betts: Yes, sir. Mr. Hill: We have not accepted th.-se lamps, as l understand it. Our eontraet is still in force, and there has been nothing before Council. We have never made them any proposl tion. The Chairman: No action has ever been taken after it was reeom mitted to the Committee on Light. Mr. Chler: That's right. Mr. Betts: The system as a sys? tem was ehanged I don't know when they made the ehange. but the point is, is the service satlsfactory, not whether the lamps were ehanged, bul is the service satlsfactory? I say it ls not. The reason for it is another matter. Mr. Hill: Do you think that the city of Alexandria should suffer by the neglect of the Alexandria Elec? tric Light Company after you had no? tifled them for three consecuttve months that the service was not right? Mr. Betts: . No, sir. Mr. Spinks: Would It be possible for them to have taken out the 7.5 ampere coils and put in 6.6 ampere coils? Mr. Betts: It could have been done, but they would not have aeeom plished anything by it. They would not save anything on it. Mr. Wicker is the best man with the company and you can depend on him. Mr. Fisher: Is lt possible to cut down the amperes at the plant? Mr. Betts: Yes. sir. Mr. Fisher: Would it interfere with the lamps? Mr. Betts: Yes, sir. That would be no beneflt to the company though to do that. lf you tried to take care of a 7.5 ampere lamp with a 6.6 am? pere current the earbons would be almosf together. it would do no good. The lamps would be dlm. and lf they were burning 7.5 amperes with t>.f> lamps it would burn the lamps up. It would burn up the gas caps and the entire globe. The coils were purchased properly, and if they were not put in, that would be Mr. Kirby's fault. Mr. Spinks: Mr. Darrah was here then. Mr. Kirby was not here then, w&s hc ? Mr. Betts: No, that is right. that statement of mine must be wrong; that must have been Darrah's fault if that was done. Mr. Spinks: That could have been done? Mr. Betts: Yes, sir; and if some of them had not been ehanged the entire thing would have been wrong. The globes and the gas caps, all of it. The lamps could not burn properly under those conditions. They could not give the light. Mr. Spinks: That seems to be the tronble now. Mr. Betts: That is not all the trouble. Ther" are other troubl.-s than that. That trouble helongs clear back to the beginning. I came here with this company after I had made my report just as Roderick went out. Then Kirby came in on my recom mendation that he be made tempor ary anperlateadent. Thal bs ba tem porarily appointed for three months. Mr. Fisher: Is it posslble for you to go out tonight or in the morning and take down certain deeigneted lamps and tell whether the coil in II was a 1.4 ampere coil or not? Mr. Betts: 1 don't think so. Th'-re may be some rnark on there that the factory people could distinguish Mr. Spinks: Do you consider the Fort Wayne lamp a standard lamp? Mr Betts: I do not. Mr. Spinks: That question was BSked Mr. Kirby and h<- stated that he did not consider that lamp the blgheal type lamp. Do you state the same thing. Mr. Betts: Yes, sir. Mr. Spinks: That is the lamp that was put in? Mr. Betts: Yes, sir. Mr. Fisher: You could go to the plant and tell the ampere? Mr. Betta: Yes, sir, I could tell how much there was in th" clreuit. Mr Spinks: You had nothing to do as to the recommendation a to the type of the lamp to be purchased? Mr. Betta: No, I start.-d to get in touch with the General Electrk Com pany and the Westinghouse people, and" I did wrif a letter to the <;<-n eral Electric people. Here it is ad? dressed to R. (' Fort. i Her- r.-ads letter, which is omitted.) Mr. Spinks: If you had had the purchaalag of these lamps would you have adopted some other than the Fort Wayne lamp? Mr. Betts: Y- s, sir. But they did not want to buy these carbon hold ers at iw.-nty-one dollars. It took them more than two months to do tbat, and when it comes to 3pending nim. l.iindred Mr. Spinks (Interrupting): You don't know tbat the present company has done anything to better the con? ditions in the last year? Mr. Betta: No, sir. Mr. spinks: All rour knowledge is about what happened before these p.ople came in? Mr. Betts: Y.-s. sir. Mr. Spinks: All the statements you made of your knowledge of that. fact were made as to the facts up to a year ago? Mr. Betts: Yes, sir. The ( hairman: I would suggest that one of you offer a raaolutlofl that Mr. Betts make an LaveetigBtlon of this matter and we cati take it up with him afterwarda and bave a con? ference, and as soon as wo get our report formulated w.- can g'-' him to come ov.r and have another confer? ence. Mr. Betta: AH thal Ia m-cessary now is to satisfy your.-elvs thal th< companv Ia not doing its duty. Mr. Fish.-r: Could you state be* fore this committee now as you stat . .1 formerty what deductloa we ought to make for the unsatisfactory condi? tion of the lights' Mr. Betts: No, I could not. state that. The polnt is this: before the trouble was that the lamps were not ictory, but you can't state how much it falls short or has fallen short. You could not make such a recommendatlpu to council now. Be fore il was twenty p*-r c-nt. M may be Bfty per cenl now or tan P'-r eent; you couldn't state that now. Mr. Fisher: How could we arriv at that? Mr. Betts: You BM this is for de fective service, service that has not been rendered; before it was becauae they rendered one kind of service when they should have made another ?another kind of lamp entirely. The meeting thereupon adjourned, subject to the call of the Chairman.