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The national Republican. [volume] (Washington City [D.C.]) 1866-1870, April 18, 1866, Image 1

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Dr. James P. llambleton.arebel surgeon,
residing in Atlanta, testified that tho people
there eipcct payment for their slaves and Tor
the destruction of property by the war when
the passions of the hour snail hare subsided.
1 hey eipcct that at some future, day thero
will be a sort of compromise, by which tho
Southern States will be relieved of their share
of the rebel debt as a compensation for thoir
losses. The people hold the same opinions
as to State sovereignty as beforo the war, but
having accepted the situation cannot as hon
orable men again resort to secession. They
would not consent to negro suffrage, but
could offer no resistance to a law of Congress
on mat subject.
testixoxt or aor. jonxsox.
lion. James Johnson, late Provisional
floTcrnor of ticorgia, testifies that imme
diately after emancipation went into actual
effect there was some hostility manifested to
ward tno negroes, but that is abating. A lew
United States troops and the Frcdmcn's Bu
reau should bo retained In Georgia until tho
district and circuit courts of the United States
ore properly organised and the Legislature
has perfected its system of laws in reference
to the negroes. Then the congressional civil
rights bill will dispense with tho ncccnity of
tho bureau.
The constitution as recently adopted makes
tho Constitution of tho United States and tho
laws made in nursuanco thereof paramount,
thus settling the disputed question which was
at the bottom of the whole difficulty. The
eoplo of Georgia are very much averse to
laving negro suffrage Imposed on them.
They would not submit to It with a good
grace, and, in fact, it would bring about colli
sion. TMTlMOTr Or AUtXAftDIR H. STKrilKKS.
Alexander II. Stephens sworn and exam
ined. UyMr. Iioutwcll:
Question. State your residence.
Answer. Crawfordsville, Ucorgia.
(2. What means have j ou had stneo Leo's
surrender to ascertain the sentiments of the
people of Georgia with regard to tho Union!
A. I was at home, in Georgia, at the time
of the surrender of General Lee, and remained
thero until the 11th of May, and during that
time conferrid very freely with tho people In
ray immediate neighborhood, with the Gov
ernor of the State, and with ono or two other
leading or prominent men in the State.
From the lltli of May until my return to
Georgia, which was the 25th of October, I
had no means of knowing anything of the
public sentiment there, except through the
fublic press and such letters as I received.
'mm the time of mv return until I left the
State on my present visit' here, I had very
exfensive Intercourse with tho people, visit
ing Augusta, visiting Millcdgeville during
the session of the Legislature, first on their
assembling, airaln in January upon their re
assembling, and again In the latter part of
icbruary. wane mere 1 converscu very
freely and fully Tilth all the prominent lead
ing men, or most of them, in tho Legislature,
and met a great many of the prominent, in
fluential men of the State not connected with
the Legislature; and by letters from and
correspondence with men in the State whom
I havo not Jnct. I believo that embraces a
full answer to tho question as to my means
of ascertaining the sentiments of the people
of that State upon the subject stated in tho
Q. As the result of your obsert atlons, what
is your opinion of the purposes of tho people
with referenco to tho reconstruction of tho
Government, and what are their desires and
purposes concerning the maintenance of the
Government T
A. My opinion, and decided opinion, is,
that an overwhelming majority of the people
of Georgia are exceedingly anxious for the
restoration of Iho Government, and for the
Stato to tako hor former position in the
Union; to have her Senators and Representa
tives admitted into Congress, and to enjoy
all her rights and to discharge all her obliga
tions as a State under the Constitution of
the United States as it stands amended.
Q What are their present viows concern
ing the Justice of the rebellion t Do they at
present believo that it was a reasonable and
proper undertaking, or otherwise t
A. My opinion of tho sentiment of the
pcoplo of Georgia upon that subject is, that
the exercise of the right of secession was re
sorted to by them from a desire to render
their liberties and institutions more secure,
and a belief on their part that this was abso
lutely necessary f6r that object. They were
divided upon the question of the policy of
the measure, thero was, however, but very
little division among them upon the question
or tho right or it. It is now their belief, In
my opinion and I give it merely as an opin
ion that the Burcst, if not the only, hope for
their liberties is the restoration of tho Con
stitution of the United States, and of the
Government or tho United States under tho
Q Has there been any change or opinion
us to the right or secession, as a right in the
people or in tho States I
A. I think thero has been a very decided
chango of opinion, as to the policy, by those
who favored it. I think the people generally
are satisfied sufficiently with the experiment,
never to resort to that measure of redress
again, by force, whatever may bo their own
abstract ideas upon that subject. They have
given up all idea or a maintenance or these
opinions by a resort to . force. They have
come to tho conclusion that it Is better to
appeal to the forums of reason and justice,
to tho halls of legislation and the courts, for
tho preservation of the principles of consti
tutional liberty, than to the arena or arms
It Is my settled conviction that thero Is not
any idea cherished at all In tho public mind
or Georgia or over resorting again to seces
sion, or to the exercise or tho right or seces
sion by forco That whole policy or tho
maintenance of their rights, in my opinion,
is at this time totally abandoned.
Q Hut tho opinion as to tho rljlit, as I
understand, remains substantially the same ?
A. I cannot answer as to that Some may
have changed their opinion in this respect
It would be an unusual thing, as well as a
difficult matter, for a whole people to change
their convictions upon abstract truths or
principles I have not heard this view of
tho subject debated or discussed recently,
and I wish to be understood as giving my
opinion only on that branch or the subject
which is or practical character and import
ance Q To what do you attribute the change
or opinion as to the propriety or attempting
to maintain their views by rorcef
A. Well, sir. ray opinion about that my
individual opinion, derived from observation
Is that this change or opinion arose mainly
from tho operation of tho war among them
selves, and tho results ol tho conflict, fio.u
their own authorities on their individual
rights of person and property the general
breaking down of constitutional barriers
wnicn usuauy aiienu an protracted wars.
Q. In 1661, when the ordinanco of seces
sion was adopted in your State, to what ex
tent wai it supported by the peonlej
A. After the proclamation of President
Lincoln calling out 73,000 militia, under tho
circumstances it was Issued, and blockading
the Southern ports, and the suspension or
tho writ or micas corpiu, the Southern
cause, as it was termed, received the almost
unanimous support or the people or Georgia.
Uefore that they were very much divided on
the policy of secession. But afterward, they
supported the cause, within the range of my
knowledge, with very few exceptions, (thero
were some few exceptions, not exceeding
hair a dozen, I think.) Tho impression then
prevailing was. that public llbertv was en
dangered, and they supported tho cause bo
cauao ol their teal for constitutional rights.
They still differed very much as to tho ulti
mato object to be attained, and tho means to
be used, but these differences yielded to tho
emergency ol mo apprencnuca common nan
ccr. .
Q. Was not tho ordinanco of secession
adopted in Georgia earlier In dato to tho pro
clamation callmir for 7S.O0O volunteers"
A. Yes. sir. I stated that the neoplo
were very much divided on tho question or
mo ordinance oi secession, but mat alter me
proclamation the people becarao almost
unanimous in their support or tho cause.
There were some few exceptions in the
State I think not more than half a dozen
among my acquaintances. As I said, while
they were thus almost unanimous in support
of the cause, they differed also as to the end
to bo attained bv sustaining: It. Some looked
to an adjustment or settlement of the contro
versy upon any basis that would secure their
constitutional rignts. utners looxeu to a
Southern separate nationality as their only
object and hope. These different views as to
the ultimate objects did not lntcrfero with
tno general active support ol me cause.
H was mere a popular voto upon mo or
dinance of secession?
A. Only bo far as in the election of dele
gates to the convention.
Q. There was no subsequent action!
A. No, sir; the ordinanco of secession was
not submitted to a popular vote afterwards.
Q. Have you any opinion as to the vote it
would have received, as compared with tho
whole, if it had been submitted to the freo
action of the peoplet
Witness. Do j ou mean after it was adopted
by tho convention?
Mr. Boutwell. Yes, after it was adopted
by the convention. If it had been submitted
forthwith or withm a reasonable time.
A. Taking the then state of things into
consideration, South Carolina, Florida, and
Mississippi, I think, having seceded, my
opinion Is that a majority of the people
would have ratified it, and perhaps a decided
or largo majority If, however, South Caro
lina and tho other States had not adopted
their ordinances or secession. I am verv well
satisfied that a majority of tho people or
ucorgia, ana pcrnaps a very decided majori
ty, would have been against secession If her
ordinanco had been submitted to them. But
as matters stood at the time, if tho ordinance
had been submitted to a popular voto or the
State, it would have been sustained That is
my opinion about that matter.
Q. What was tho dato or tho Georgia ordi
nanco ?
A. The 18th or 19th; I think tho 19th of
January, 16C1, though I am not certain
Q The question of secession was involved
in the election of delegates to that conven
tion, was it not ?
A. Yes. sir.
Q And was thereon the part or candi
dates a pretty general avowal oi opinions r
A. Very general.
Q What was tho result or the election as
far as tho convention expressed any opinion
upon tho question of secession?
A. I think tho majority was about thirty
in tho convention in favor of secession. I do
not recollect tho exact vote.
Q. In a convention of how many ?
A. In a convention based upon tho tram
ber of Senators and members of tho House
In tho General Assembly of the Stato. The
exact number I do not recollect, but I think
it was near three hundred, perhaps a few over
or under.
Q Was there any difference In different
parts of tho State in the strength of Union
sentiment at that time ?
A. In some of tho mountain counties the
Union sentiment was penerallv nrevalent
Tho cities, towns, and villages were generally
ur BecesBion throughout the State, I think,
with some exceptions Tho anti-secession
sentiment was more general in the rural dis
tricts and in tho mountain portions or tho
Stato ; yet the people or somo or the upper
counties were ery active and decided seces
sionists. Thero was nothing liko a sectional
division ol tho State at all. For instanco, tho
delegation from Floyd county, In which tho
city or Homo is situated, in the upper portion
ol the Stato, was an able one and strong for
secession, while tho county or Jefferson, down
in tho interior or tho cotton belt, sent ono or
the most prominent delegations ror tbo Union.
I could designate other particular counties
in that way throughout tho State, showing
that thero was not what might be termed a
sectional or geographical division or toe
Stato on the question.
Q In what particular did the people be
lievo their constitutional liberties wcro as
sailed or endangered from the Union ?
A. Mainly, I would say, in their internal
social polity and their apprehension from tho
general consolidating tendencies of tlie-doc-trincs
and principles of that political party
which had recently succeeded tho choice of a
President and Vice President of tho United
States It was tho serious apprehension that
if the Republican organization, as then con
stituted, should succeed to power, it would
lead ultimately to u virtual subversion or the
Constitution of the United States, and all its
essential guarantees of publio liberty. I
think that was the sincere and honest convic
tion in the minds of our pcoplo Those who
opposed secession did not apprehend that any
Buch result would necessarily follow tho clcc
tionsjwhichhad taken place, thoy still thought
that all their rights might be maintained in
tho Union and under the Constitution, espe
cially as mere were majorities in Domnouscs
or uongrcss wno agricu witu tnem on consti
tutional questions
Q. 'lo what feature of their Internal social
nolitv did thev apprehend danger ?
A. Principally tho subordination of tho
African race as It existed under their laws
and institutions
Q. In what spirit Is tho emancipation of
slaves received by the people ?
A. Generally it is acquiesced In and ac
cepted, i mint, in periect good laiui, anu
wun a imposition to uo tno nest tuai can uo
done In tho new order of things in that par
ticular Q. What at present are tho relations sub
sisting botwecn tho white people and black
people, especially in the relation of employ
ers and employed?
A. liuiie as good, i ininit, as in any pan
of the world that ever I have been in. be
tween like classes of employer and employee.
Tho condition or things In this respect, on
ray return last rail, was very different from
wnat it was ween 1 leit noma lor my present
visit to this city. During the fall, and up to
tho closo of the year, there was a general
opinion prevailing among the colored people
that at Christmas there would be a division
or the lands, and a very general indisposition
on their part to make any contracts at all
for tho present year. Indeed, there wero
very few contracts, I think, mado throughout
the State until after Christmas, or about the
first or January. General Tillson, who is at
the head of the bureau in the State, and
whose administration has given very general
satisfaction to our pople, I think, was very
octlvo in disabusing the minds of the colored
people from their error in this particular.
lie visited quite a number of places in the
State, and addressed large audiences of col
ored people, and when they became satisfied
they wcro laboring under a mistako In an
ticipating a division or lands after Christ
mas and the 1st ol January, they made con
tracts very readdy, generally, and since that
time affairs have in tho main moved on quite
smoothly and quietly.
Q. Are tho negroes generally at work?
A. Yes, sir; they ore generally at work.
There are some Idlers, but this class consti
tutes but a small nronortiori.
Q. What, upon the whole, has been their
conduct proper under the circumstances In
which they have been placed, or otherwise I
A. As a whole, much better than tho most
hopeful looked for.
i As rar as you know, wnat are mo lead
ing objects and desires of the negro popula
tion at the present time in reference to them
selves? A. It is to be protected in their rights of
persons and or prbperty to bo dealt by
fairly and justly.
Kl wnat, h anyming, nas been uono oy
tho Legislature of your Stato for the accom
plishment or these objects ?
A. Tho Legislature has passed an act, ol
which tho following is a copy :
fan. M
"An act to dsfia th term 'mmodi of color,' and
to doolsro tbo rights oriueh porsoni,
"So 1. Jit it wacttJ, ift , That all negro!,
mulatto!, moitllo!, and tbalr deioeodints, bar-
Injr odo 01111111 doito or Afrlosn blood ta tbelr
Tolor, rbtil b kaowo ta tbU 6UU as 'pcrions of
"o, 2. B it furtktr tnacted, That ponoc! of
eolor !hll bsv tho right to mako aad onforoo eon
traots, to !s, bo !ud, to bo partus aod glv ovl
dtoee, to Inherit, to jmrohtM, and to bare fall and
qnalbflnoBt of alt laws and proceedings for the
eeuritv of person and estate, and shall not b sub
jected to any other or different panlshment, pain,
or penally ror mo commission ol any act or onenco
than each as are proscribed for white persons eom
ulttlng Ilk acts or offences."
Tho third section of this act simply repeals
nil conflicting laws. It was approved by the
Governor on the 17th of March last.
Q Docs this act express the opinions of
tho people, and will it be sustained?
A. I think it will be sustained by tho
courts as well as by public sentiment. It
was passed bv the present Legislature. As
an evidence or the tone of the Legislature of
tho State, as well as that or the neoplo of the
State, upon this subject, I will refer you
simply too letter i wrote to senator mowart
upen tho same subject I submit to you a
copy or that letter. It is as follows :
"Wlin.iTO, D C, April 4, IMS
"DsAn 6lB In answer to your Inquiries touching
the sentiments and feelings of the people of Ueor
frla toward the freedmen, and the legal status of
this class of populatloa In the State, Ao , allow me
brloflj to say that tho address delivered by mo on
k. .! ... V.k.. I..I hr..M Iks I -i.t.i.... .
copy of which I herewith band yon) espressos very
fully and clearly my own opinions and feelings
upon th subject of your Inquiry This address
was written and printed a yon now s it bfor
it delivery. 11 was aeuverod ferOartm as you non
read it, that thero might bo no mlstak about It
It was a it now stands unanimously endorsed by
the Senato In a Joint resolution, which was eon
ourred la In the llouso without disseot, and was
ordered to bo spread upon tbo Journals of both
houses This I refr you to as a hotter aod mor
reliable Index of the feelings and views of tbo peo
pie of tho State on this subject than any bare In
dividual opinion I might entertain or spress Th
Legislator of tho 6ute, It Is to bo presumed, Is as
correct an oiponent of the general feelings and
views of tbo Stato npon any political question as
any that can bo obtained from any quarter la
addition to this, the Legislature subsequently
evinced their principles by their works in passing
an act, which 1 also eneios to you. This act
speaks for Itself It is short, oonelse, pointed, as
well as comprehensive It seoures to the colored
race tbo right to contract and to nforo contracts,
the right to sue and to bo sued, th right to testify
la the oourts, subject to th sam rule that govro
th tsstlmooy of whites, and It subject them to
tho same punishments for all offence a th whites
In these respects, embraolng all essential civil
rights, all classes In Oeorgla now stand equal be
fore th law. Thar la no dlsorlmlnatloa In thss
particulars on account of race or oolor
"1'leu xous this hasty note I hav no Urn
to go mor In detail
"Yours, most respeotfallr,
ALaxaiinBB II Stbfiisns
Hon Wm. M. Stbwibt. U. S SlKlll
Q What, If anything, is being done in
Georgia in regard to the education or tho ne
groes, cither children or adults?
A. Nothing by the public authorities as
yet. Schools are being established in many
portions or the State, under tho auspices, I
think, ol the Frcedmcn's Bureau, and quite
a number by the colored peoplo themselves,
encouraged by tho whites
Q What disposition do tho negroes mani
fest In regard to education?
A. Ihero seems to bo a very great desire
on tho part of tho children and tho younger
ones, and with their parents, to havo thcin
Q What is the present legal condition of
tnose wno navo uveu togemcr as nusuund and
wife? Do tho laws recognize andsustain tho
relations and the legitimacy of their off
A. Our Stato laws do They recognize all
those living as man and wifo as legally man
and wifo. A good many of thcin took out
licenses, and wero married in tho usual way
'Ihero is no difiercnce in our laws in that
respect Licenses aro issued for white and
black alike, only they aro prohibited from in
termarrying with each other. The raics are
pot permitted to intermarry.
Q Wcro tho amendments to tho constitu
tion of the State of Georgia, recently adopt
ed, submitted to the people?
A No, sir, they were not submitted I
have no hesitation, however, in exprtssing
the opinion that nine tenths of the neoplo
wouh havo voted for them If the constitution
had been submitted rl hat is but an opinion
I heard no dissent at all In tho State I was
there all tho time I got 'homo before the
convention adjourned The Stato constitu
tion, as mado by tho tonvtntion, would have
been ratified almost without opposition It
would have been ratified nem ton if it had
been submitted This, at least. Is mv oninion
Q What was tho voting population of
your Hiato in iboui
A. Something upwards of a hundred thou
0. What Is probably tho present voting
population ?
A. The voting population of tho State,
under the present constitution, is perhaps
eighty thousand. This Is a mere estimate.
i. lias mere uccn any enumeration oi tno
losses of Georgia in tho field, in the military
service I
A. No accurate estimate that I am aware of.
Q. What Is it aupposed to have been ?
A. I am not able to answer tbo question
with anything liko accuracy.
Q. What Is the public sentiment of Geor
gia with regard to the extension of the right
of voting to tho negroes ?
A. Tho general opinion in the State is very
much averse to it.
Q. If a proposition wero mado to amend
tho Constitution so as to have a representa
tion In Congress based upon votes substan
tially, would Georgia ratify such a proposed
amendment, if it wero made a condition pre
cedent to the restoration of the Stato to po
litical power in the Government?
A. I do not think they would. Tho people
of Georgia, in my judgment, as fafaa I can
reflect or represent their opinions, feel that
they aro entitled under tho Constitution or
me united states to representation witnom
any farther condition precedent. They would
not object tocntcrtam, discuss, and exchango
views in tho common councils of the country
with tho other States upon such a prop
osition, or any proposition to amend the Con
stitution or change it in any or Its features,
and they would abide by such change, If made
as the Constitution provides; but they feel
that they are constitutionally entitled to be
heard bv their Senators and members in the
Houses of Congress upon this or any other
proposed amendment. I do not, therefore,
mink mat mey would rainy mat amendment
suggested as a condition precedent to her
being admitted to a representation in Con
gress, uuen, at least, is my opinion.
tho nconlo or Georgia would neither be will
u. it is men vour omnion mat at present
ing to extend suffrage, to the negroes nor con
sent to tho exclusion or tho negroes from tho
basis or representation r
A. Tho peoplo or Georgia, In my Judg.
ment. are perfectly willing to leave suffrage
and the basis of representation whero tho
Constitution leaves it. They look upon tho
question of suffrago as one belonging exclu
sively to tho States; ono over which, under
tl.a nnr.Bltt,ill.n nt Inn ITnlln.l Rlnlna flnn.
grcss has no iurisdiction. powir. or control,
except in proposing amendments to the
States, and not in exacting them from them,
and I do not think, therefore, that the people
or that State, while they are disposed, as I
believe, earnestly, to deal fairly, tustlv. and
generously with the freedmen, would be will
ing lo consent to a cbange in me uonsiuu
tion that wouid give Congress jurisdiction
over tho question of suffrage. And especially
would thA v ha verv much averse to Congress
exercising any such jurisdiction without their
llepresentauves In mo senate and lloime ue
Ing heard m tho public council upon this
nucstion that so vitally concerns their inter
nal policy, as well as tho internal policy of
all tho States.
0. II the proposition were to bo submitted
to Georgia, as one or the eleven States lately
in rebellion, that sho might be restored to
political power in the Government or the
country upon the condition precedent that
she shoulu, on the one hand, extend suffrage
to tho negro, or, on the other, consent to their
exclusion from the basis of representation,
would sho accept either proposition and take
her place, in the Government or the country?
A. I can only givo my opinion I do not
think she would accept either as a condition
precedent presented by Congress, for they do
not believo that Congress has tho rightful
power under the Constitution to prescribe
such a condition. If Georgia is a State in
the Union, her pcoplo fool that she is entitled
to representation without conditions imposed
by Congress And ir sho is not a Stato in
the Union, then she could not bo admitted as
an equai with tho others, ir her admission
were trammelled with conditions that do not
apbly to all tho rest ahko General univer
sal suffrage among tho colored people, us
they arp now there, would by our people bo
regarded as about as great a political evil as
could befall them
Q. Ifthe proposition wero to extend tho
right or suffrage to those who could read and
to those who had served In tho Union armies,
would that modification affect tho action of
tho Stato ?
A. I think the people of tho Stato would
be. unwilling to do more than they have done
for restoration. Restricted or limited suf
frago would not be so objectionablo as gen
eral or universal. But it is a matter that
belongs to tho Stato to regulate. The ques
tion of suffrage, whether universal or re
stricted, is ono of State policy exclusively, as
thoy believe Individually 1 should not be
opposed to a proper system of restricted or
limited suffrage to this class of our popula
tion, but in my judgrrlent it-is a matter that
belongs of constitutional right to tho States
to regulate exclusively, each for itseir nut
tho pcoplo of 'that State, as I havo said,
would not willingly, I think, do more
than they have dono for restoration
Tho only view in their opinion that could
Eossibly justify the war which was tarriidon
y tho Federal Government against thcin
was the idea of tho insolublencss of tho
Union that those who held tho administra
tion for tho time wero bound to enforte tho
execution of tho laws und the malnttnance
of the integrity of tho country under tho
Constitution, and since that was accom
plished, since thoso who had assumed tho
contrary principle the right or secession,
and tho reserved sovereignty or tho Stato
had abandoned their cause, and tho adminis
tration hero was successful in maintaining
tho idea upon which war was proclauned and
waged, and tho only view in which they sup
posed it could bo justified at all ihen that
was accomplished, I say, the pcoplo of Geor
gia supposed their State was immediately en
titled to all her rights under the Constitu
tion '1 hat Is my opinion of the sentiment
of the peoplo of Georgia, nnd 1 do not think
they would bo willing to do anything furtlici
as a condition precedent to their being per
mitted to enjoy tho full measure of their con
stitutional rights I only gn o my opinion of
tho sentiment of tho peoplo at this time
'Ihey expected as soon as tho Confed
eral causo was abandoned that immediately
the States would be brought back into their
practical relations with tho Government as
proviouly constituted That Is what they
looked to 'I hey expected that tho State
would immediately have their representatives
in tho Senato and in the House, and they ex
pected In good faith, as loyal men, as the
term is frequently used I mean by it loyal
to iaw, order and tho Constitution to sup
port the Government under tho Constitution
a hat was their reeling They did what they
did, believing it was best for tho protection
of constitutional liberty
Toward the Constitution or tho United
States, as they construed it, tho great mass
of our peoplo wero us much devoted in their
reelings as tny people ever were toward any
cause. This u my opinion. As I remarked
before, they resetted to secession with a view
or maintaining more securely these princi
ples. And when they found they were not
successful in their ohiect.ln perfect good faith,
as far as I can judge from meeting with
them and conversing with them, looking to
tho future developments or their country in
its material resources, as well as its moral
and intellectual progress, their earnest desire
and expectation was to allow tho past
struggle lamentable as it was in its results,
to pass by, and to cooperate with tho true
friends of the Constitution, with those of all
tlon of constitutional liberty and the perpet
uation of tho Government in it nnritv? Thev
hrve been a little disappointed in this, and
aro so now. mey aro patient v waiting.
however, and believing that when tho pas
sions of tho hour havo passed away this de
lay in restoration win cease, iney tnink
they have dono everything that was essential
and proper, and my Judgment is, that they
would not bo willing to do anything further
as n condition precedent. They would sun-
piy remain quiet and passive
Q. Does your own judgment epprovo tho
view you have given as tho opinion of tho
peopio oi tno state r
A. My own Judgment Is very decided
that tho question of suffrago is ono that bo
longs,undcr the Constitution and wisely so,
too to tho States respectively and exclu
sively. (2 It is your opinion that neither of the
alternatives suggested in tho question ought
to ue accepted oy tne people or ueorgla T
A. My own opinion u that these terms
ought not to be offered as conditions prece
dent. In other words, my opinion is that it
would bo best for the peace, harmony and
prosperity ol tho whole country that thero
should bo an immediato restoration an im
mediate bringing back or the States into
their original practical relations and let all
theso questions then bo discussed in common
council. Thcnlthe representatives from the
South could be neard. and u and all could
judge much better ofthe tone and temper or
iuu luupiij uiuu yuu tuuiu iruiu mu ujiuuuus
given by any Individuals You may tako
my omnion or the opinion of any individual,
lu't tiny will not enable jou to judgo of tho
condition of tho State of Georgia bo well as
for her own representatives to be heard in
your humble councils In her own behalf My
judgment, therefore, is very decided that it
would have been better, as Boon as the la
mentable conflict was over, when the people
of the South abandoned their cause and
agreed to accept the issue desiring, as they
do, to resume their places for the future in
the Union, and to look to the halls of Con
gress and the courts for the protection of
their" rights in the Union it would have
been bcttcrto have allowed that result to fob
low, under tho policy adopted by tho Ad
ministration, than to delay it or hinder it by
propositions to amend tho Constitution In
respect to suffrage or any other new matter.
I think the people ot all tho southern
States would, in the balls of Congress, dis
cuss these questions calmly and deliberately;
and if they did not show that the views they
entertained nero just and proper, such as to
control tho judgment of the people of the
other tactions and States, they would quietly,
patiently, and patriotically yield to whatever
should bo constitutionally determined in
common council Hut I think they feel crj
sensitively tho offer to them of propositions
to accept, while they are denied all voice in
the common council of tho Union under the
Constitution In the discussion of theso propo
sitions I think they feel very sensitively
that they aro denied tno right to be heard
And while, as I ha c said, they might differ
among themselves in many points in regard
to Bultrage, they would not dilTer upon the
auction of doing anything further as a con
ition precedent to restoration And in re
spect to the alternate conditions to be so pre
sented, I do not think they would accept the
one or the other. My individual general
views as to tbo proper courso to be pursued
In respect to the colored people aro expressed
in a speech made before the Georgia Legisla
ture, referred to In my letter to Senator
Stewart j that was tho proper forura, as I
conceive, In which to discuss this subject
And I think a great deal depends in tho ad
vancement of civilization ana progress, look
ing to tho benefit of all classes, that theso
?uestions should bo considered and kept bo
ore tho proper forum
Q. Suppose theStatesthat aro represented
in Congress and Congress itself should be of
tho opinion that Georgia should not bo per
mitted to tako its place in tho Government
of tho countrj except upon Its assent to one
or tho other of the two propositions sug
gested; is it then your opinion that under
suchcircnrastances Georgia ought to deelme ?
Witness You mean the States now repre
sented, and thoso only f
Mr Boutwell Yes
AVitness You mean by Congress, Con
gress as it is now constituted, with tho other
eleven States excluded?
Mr Iioutwcll. I do
Witness And you mean the same alterna
tive propositions to bo applied to all the
clc.cn States as conditions precedent to their
Mr lloutwell I do
A '1 hen I think she ought to decline un
der tho circumstances, and for tho reasons
stated, and so ought tho whole eleven
Should such an offer be mado and declined,
and these States should thus continue to bo
excluded and kept out, u singular spectacle
would bo presented In lHbl theso States
thought they could not remain safely m the
Union without new guarantees, and now,
when they agreo to resumo their former
practical relations In tho Union, under tho
Constitution as it is, tho other States turn
upon them, and say they cannot penult tin m
to do so wifely to their interest, without new
guarantees on their part 1 ho Southern
States would thus present themselves us will
ing tor immediato Union under the Const!
tutlon, whilo it would be the Isorlhtrnhtutts
oppobod to it, Iho former disumonrsts would
thereby become Unionists, and the former
Unionists the practical disunionists
Q lo j ou mean to be understood in our
last answer that there is no constitutional
power in tho Government, as at present or
ganized, to exact conditions precedent to the
restoration of political power of tho eleven
States that have been In rebellion?
A Yes, sir 'I hat is my opinion
Q Do you entertain tho same opinion in
reft u nee to tho uineudment to tho Gontitu
tion abolishing slavery?
A 1 do 1 think tho States, however,
abolished slavery In good fuith, as ono of tho
results of the war Their ratification of tho
constitutional amendment followed as a con
sequence I do not think there is any con
stitutional power on the put of tho Govern
ment to havj) exacted it us a tomtit km pre
cedent to their rtstoration under tho Conxti
tutlon, or to tho rexumptfon of their plateaus
members of tho Union
Q What, In your opinion, Is the legal value
of the laws passed by Congress and approved
by the President In the absence of Senators
and Representatives from the eleven States ?
A. I do not know what nartlcnlar law von
refer to; but my answer, generally, Is, that
the validity of all laws depends oa their con-
suiuiionaiuv. mat is a Question ror tne
judiciary to determine. My own judgment.
wnaicvcr u mtgnt oe, wouiu nave to coniorm
to tho judicial determination of tho qucstia.L
It is a question for tho courts to determine.
Q. Have you formed any opinion upon
that question ?
O. I cannot say that I havo formed any
matured oninion in reference to any particu
lar act of Congress embraced In the question.
O Assume thatComrrcss shall In this ses
sion, In tbo absence of Senators and Repre
sentatives from tho cloven States, pass an act
levying taxes upon all tho people of the Uni
ted States, including the eleven. U It) our
opinion that such an act would bo constitu
A. I should doubt if It would be. It would
certainly, in mv opinion, be manifestly un
just, uiyi against all ideas of American rcj-
rcseniame government, its constitutional
Ity would, however, bo a question for the ju
diciary to decide, and I should be willing to
abide by that decision, whatever it might be.
0. If tho eleven States have ut present an
Immediate constitutional right to be repre
sented In Congress on u tooting with tho
Stfttes at present represented, has that been
a continuous right from the formation of tho
Government, or from tho timo of the admis
sion of the new Mates respectively, or has
it Deen interrupted oy wan
A. I think, as the Con cress of the United
States did not consent to the withdrawal of
the seceding States, it was a continuous right
under the Constitution of the United States,
to be exercised so soon as the seceding States
respectively made known their readiness to
resume their practical relations with the Fed
eral Government, under the Constitution of
tho United States. As the General Govern
ment denied the right of secession, I do not
think any of tho States attempting to exer
cise It thereby lost any of their rights under
tne uoustitiuion, as states, wnenincir people
abandoned that attempt.
Q Is it or not vour opinion that the Legis
latures und people of tho eleven States, re
spectively, have at present such a right to
elect Senators and Representatives to Con
gress; that it may be exercised without regard t
lo i no pun which pe-rsuus uicxieu muy uutu
had In the rebellion?
A. I do not think they could exercise that
right in the choice of their Senators and
members so as to impair in the slightest dc-
?;rce tho constitutional right of each house
or itself to in dire of tho ciuaht. cations of
those who might ne chosen. The right of
the constitutional electors oi a biate to
chooBC, and tho right of each house of Con
gress to judge of the qualifications of those
elected to the respective bodies, are very dis
tinct and different ou est ions And In thus
judging of qualifications, I am free to admit
mat in my opinion no ono snouiu uo ad
mitted as a member of either house of Con
gress who Is not really and truly loal to tho
Constitution of tho United States and to tho
Government established by it.
Q. fotutc whether, from )our observation,
thoecntsof tho war have produced any
change In the public mind of the South upon
tno question oi uic reserved rigms oi me
States under the Constitution of the United
A. That question I answered in part es
terday. Whilo I cannot Btate from personal
knowledge to what extent the opinions of
the Southern States upon tho abstract mes
tlon of tho reserved rights of the States may
have changed, my decided opinion Is that a
very thorough change has taken place upon
the practical policy of resorting to any such
Q What events or experience of tho war
have contributed to this change ?
A. Tirst, the people aro satisfied that a re
sort to the cxerciso of this right, whilo it is
denied b) tho Federal Government, will lead
to wur, which many thought before tho luto
attempted secession would not be the case,
and civil wars they aro also now very well
satisfied aro dangerous to liberty, and more
over, their expenenco In tho lato war, I
think, satisfied them that It great! end an
irered their own I allude especially to the
suspension of the writ of habea$ corpus, the
military conscriptions, the proclamations of
martial iaw m various places, general un
pressincntB, and the levying of forced con
tributions, as well as the very demoralizing
effects of war general!.
When were jou last a member of the
Congress of tho United States ?
A. I went out on the 4th of March, 1659.
O Will ou state, if not indisposed to do
so, the considerations or opinions which led
you to identify joursclf with the rebellion so
fur as to accept tho office of Vice President
of the Confederate States of America, so
called ?
A I believo thoroughly in tho reserved
sovereignty of tho several States of the
Union under the compact of Union or Con
stitution of 1787 I opposed secession, there
foro, as a question of pohc), and not one of
right on tho part of Georgia Whtn the
State Becedtd against in lutlgmont and vote,
I thought my ultimate allegiance was duo to
her, und I preferred to cast my fortunes and
destiulefl w ith hers und ber people, rather thun
to take any other course, even though it
might lead to my sacrifice and her rum. In
accepting position under tho new order of
things, my sole object was to do all the good
I could in preserving and perpetuating the
principles of liberty, as estublished under the
Constitution of tho United btutes If tho
Union was to bo abandoned, cither with or
without forco which I thought a crj im
politic measure I wished, if possible, to
rescue, pribcrve, and perpetuate the princi
ples of tho Constitution 'lhis, I wus not
without hope, might be dono in tho new con
federacy of btutes formed
Uhen tho conflict aroe mv efforts wero
directed to ns pniedv and peaceful an ad
justment of the questions as poshible This
aujusimeui i uiwuys uiougui to ue lasting,
would have ultiraatch to bo settled upon a
continental basis, founded upon the princi
ples oi muuiui convemencs anu reciprocal
advantage on tho part of the States, on which
tho Constitution of .the United States was
originally formed 1 was wedded to no par
ticular plan of adjustment, except the rccog
nition, us u basis, of the separate sovereignty
of the several States 'With this recognized
us a principle, 1 thought all other questions
of difference would soon adjust themselves,
ae cording to the best interests, peace, welfure
and prosperity of tho whole country us en
lightened reason, culm judgment, and u sense
ot justico might direct 'llus dottrme ofthe
sovereignty of tho several Statis 1 regarded
us a self adjusting regulating principle of
our American svstem of Stuto governments,
extending, possibly, over tho continent
il Havo your opinions undergone anj
change since tho opening of the rebellion in
reference to the reserved rights of the States
under the Constitution of tho United States ?
A. My convictions on tho original abstract
question have undergone no change, but I
accept the issues of the war and tho result as
a practical settlement of that question. Tho
sword was appealed to to decide the nutation.
and by the decision of the sword I am will
ing to auiuo.
Th Flrrt Union n liaised by th CUU
tma f Zulaltuut Aftr tfa Arrival f
th Vailed Slat! Fltat at Ifw Orl,
Under th Gallant Comntdar FmiTatfat
Th Union AaaoeUtlon of Naw Orleans held their
nrtt poblle meeUna; at the City Hall, on tho 3d of
June, 1863. and reeolred to hoiit th United States
flat; on the foil owing Saterday, at 13 oWoek m.
Th President of th Aaaoolatlon was authorised to
appoint a oommttta of thirty four to perform th
doty, bat after appointing aaTeral who declined. It
wai reiolred to call for a volanteer eommltteo,
which wai don, and thirty four cam forward and
rrglitertd their namea as willing to nndertak th
batardoni taak
Under th I nil nance, however, of anon-ymou and
threatening letters, which were racttred by nearly
a? try member of the committee, six or seven war
Intimidated and did not strve, bat the remaining1
twenty seran, whose namea are painted on the bin
field of th flag, asoended to the top of th City
Hall and hoisted th glorloai old flag as th clock
struck 12 m , amidst th cheera of hundreds of
anxious spectators assembled to witness th national
banner one mor nnforlod over th CUy Hall of
New Orleans.
Erery member pf that eommItte'hu proved
truly loyal to the United Elates Oovernmenti aev
eral Joined the United States army and served faith
fulljf others hav been compelled to leav New Or
leaoa became they war onabl to obtain employ
ment anfflelent to support their famUIe. Those re
maining bar prate trad the organisation of th
committee, and finally concluded to send th flag to
Washington to be preMrved amongst th archly
of th Uorarnmcnt, requesting General Butler to
designate some suitable pUe for its deposit.
Nvr Oaiaina, La , Feb 19, ISM.
Wo, lb undersigned, cllUeniof boulslana, mem
bers of the volanteer committee who hoisted th
United BUtes flag over th City IUll at New Or
leans, June tb 7tb, 1802, twelre o'clock m , do
hereby authorise Dr Jamea Ready to carry said
flag to Washington city, to present th same to
Major General B. F. Butler, and to request him, In
behalf of the committee, to deposit said flag In
some suitable plac amongst tho archWes of thli
Q ore rn ment.
We further take great pleasure in recommending
Dr Jamea Ready as an honorable and trustworthy
gentleman, and bespeak for him th hlgbeet com
mendatton ror baring laiwiuny prese-rea ana pro
tected said flag from the time of ita removal from
lb City llall to to present
SiDisr 0. Brow m,
B II Chad wick,
8'M0n Fas iff,
II HoDRiacix,
Tsoi. Ltjub,
Jamki Kihak,
IUiav Bamstv,
Jos P. Mcarnr,
Louis Fix,
Thomas J. Earbabt.
B. L. Diowm, Secretary of Committee.
LKTTinrnoM obkbral bctlbb
WatBixsTOR CUT, Mirth 18. ISM
Mv Dsar Sir I am obliged to the gentlemen of
the Commltte of th Union Association of New
Orleans, that they hare asked my adric as to th
deposition of th flag which was first raised by
them over tb City Hall after the secession of th
I have a very lively remembrance of th incident.
The few true Union men, gathered together, formed
a nucleus around which the sentiment of loyalty to
the Union might olusUr, making a germ which,
had it been wisely and properly nurtured and cared
for, would r this hav ripened into a truly loyal
6 tat
That It has not been so has not been th fault of
yourself or associates It Is th misfortune of th
A$ the first sacrilegious hand waa laid upon th
flag in tb Revenue service of tb United States, at
the opening of the rebellion, In Louisiana, I re
commend that your association deliver to th Rev
no department of th Treasury th custody of
this flag, the tint fruits of returning fealty to th
Union in Louisiana
I cannot doubt that tb gift will be fully appre
ciated and properly oared for in that department.
Thanking y.u for your complimentary courtesy,
I am, very truly, your friend and servant,
Bbbj F. Bittlrs,
Doctor Jambs Rradv, chairman of commUtee,who
volunteered to hoist th first Union flag over tho
City Hall, New Orleans, Jan 7,1882
WabriiutoxCitt, D C, April 1.1M9
DstnBiR In behalf of th volunteer flag com
mPtee of the Union Aaaoolatlon of New Orleans,
aod In accordance with th kind suggestions of
General B F Butler In a letter to me dated March
28, 1S6 herewith enclosed, I beg leave to present
to the Treasury Department the United States flag
which was hoisted by said flag oommlttee over tho
City Hall of New Orleans on the 7th day of J one,
186.!, at 12 o'clock tn , believed to be the first
Union flag raised by th cltlsens la any of th re
belUous States after th commencement of hostili
ties Hoping you will accept It as a fitting present
from a loyal and faithful band of patriots, and that.
it may be faithfully preserved amongst the archives
of our belored Government, I remain yours, with
great raipect, Jahri RlADV.
Hon HiobMcCulloco, Secretary U B Treasury.
TkiAtrar DiriatJuaaT. April S, 16M
Dear Sir lour favor of th 2d Instant, with
the accompanying flag, has been received.
I understand, from your letter, and tb letter of
General B F. Butler addressed to you on the 38th
ult , that, aa "tb first sacrilegious hand was laid
upon the national flag tn th revenue servic of the.
United States at tho opening of the rebellion In
Louisiana," th Association of which you are th
chairman have deemed It proper to present to tho
Secretary of th Treasury, who Is at tb bead of
the Revenue Department of th Government, the
first Union flag hoisted over th City Hall tn New
Orleans after tne attempted accession ot that Stat,
and supposed to b tbo first Union flag raised by
the oilliens of any on of tb State recently In re
bellion after the commencement of hostilities
To all true cltlsena of tho United States the stars
and stripes are always an object of affectionate In.
terett and pride They ar associated with much
that Is dear and honorable to them as a people,
and ar now doubly prlsaJ, as they Lave become
again the Bug ofthe entire Union
When the flag now preiented to th Treasury
Department waa first raised In th Crescent City,
another flag bad been substituted for the old on In
rleven States of tbo Republic Except where It
floated at th few points held by th Government
furces or at tb bead of tb Union columns, no man
dared openly to acknowledge fealty to It thrcue;h
out a large portion of the national domain Th
raising of this flag was the first public proclama
tion of returning loyalty in tho Stat of Louisiana.
ben It waa for tb .first time publicly unfolded,
the GoTtrnment was engaged In a strutgl with a
gigantic rebellion, tb first effective blow against
which waa given in the capture of Now Orleans,
following the most brilliant naval achievement upon
Th great rebellion bai now been crushedj th
national banner has been ui raised again through
ont th length and breadth of tbe land May w
not indulge the hop that it will soon b honored
and loved as of yoro, oven by those who madly at
tempted to dishonor It, and float over a people uni
ted In sympathy aod good fellowship as they must
bo In Government and destiny
Return, mydearslr, totheajsoclatlooyoarepre
sent, my slncer thanks for pr"D " f to
theTreisury Department It witlbcarruUypr
served as a memento of the great trial through
which tb nation bai "My nd honorably pasaed,
and of the loyalty of th gallant llttl band who
tir.t.ra it to the breet It will b preserved,
not as a reminder of th triumph of on section of
the country over another, but of tb Union over
iboie who attempted to dismember it not of a vie
I ry of th North over th Sooth, but of Constltu
tl nal liberty and republican institutions In th
great struggle of tb Government for th main
tenance of both
I am, very truly, yours,
II McOclloch,
Seetretary of th Treasury.
To Jambs B-udt, Washington, D 0.

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