National Republican., May 26, 1874, Page 6, Image 6

About National Republican. (Washington City (D.C.)) 1872-1888

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DISTRICT INVESTIGATION
CCXCZUMOK OF THE TESTIMONY
TAKEST OX aJJTnSDJLT.
JOB ANOU8 ON THE STAND-HIS OPINION
ON VARIOUS MATTEBS ENGINEEB
BARNES RECALLED-MORE EVIDENCE OP
CLCSS' INCOMPETENCY GIVEN BT H1M
f ELT-TESTIMOXY OF W. O. DAYTON AJiD
THOMAS D. WINTEB.
By Mr. Mattingly: Q. Ton made some allu
sion to the contract for the wood pavement on
Fifteenth street, between 8 and Boundary.
State whether that la the voucher signed by
too! A. Tes. sin that la one of the first blank
vouchers 5,623 square yards of wood pave
ment, wnicn -win make, you will put down
the price, about $17,000. That Is correct.
t. This same gentleman. -you state, had a
partial measurement, and had. got his money
and bad gone. What old you say about that!
A. I said that After he made his measurement
he stopped work, and left that part of the
street which connects with the city proper un
finished. Be has left the city for a length of
ume, lor parts un Known to me.
0. Did he not report to you before leaving!
A.lio.slr.
o. Look at this Toucher of J. E. Gregg, for
Fifteenth street between S and Boundary. Did
700 sign thatl A. Yes, sir.
o,. Mr. Cross, Just take these papers and
state what they are.
Witness then read the papers and Indorse
ments as follows:
.. , WASnisGTOS, Jan 6,1874.
Beard of Public 7rorl.-
(Iistlimek: I respectfully uk for a measure
ment of. tna grading of New Hompihirs avenue,
from K. street to the Potomac river.
Very respectfully, - Hcoh Mcbbat.
BOARD OP PUBLIC TVonKS,
"1
tVAKnixomx. JinmrT7. 1T3-
11RIK1V1 UrUILUMUU
Herpcctfully referred to the engineer In charge.
oj orucr ei tne ooara.
Fsask T. Howe, Chief Clerk.
Herpectfally returned with account for trans
mittal to auditor.
A dolt- Clcss, Engineer In charge.
JAXUABT 16, 1874.
lierpectrally referred to the auditor.
By order of the board.
Fbakk T. Howz. Chief Clerk.
I'atemtntt for Stdevallt and Carriagmayt.
Washington, D. C.January 15, 1874.
Board or Public Works, District of Columbia,
to Hugh Murray, Dr.
29,361 cable yards grading, at SO cents
per yard 18,815 U
23.3S4-cubic yards haul, 2.500 feet over
800 feet at IJi, equal to 31.'i - - 0,162 81
17.998 31
9,tW
teas 20 per cent
t Deduct certificates 4817 and 8973
14,398 65
4,984 66
9 414 09
I hereby certify that I have measured and lm
speeted the wcrk done by Hugh Murray, on the
Improvement ol New Hampshire avenue north.
west, between I street and Virginia avenue, em
braced In the foregoing bill, which work was done
unaerine cruer oi tse Atoara oi a-uduc woras,
and find It correct as to quantity and quality:
and that the work has been done and material
and labor famished, as per contract and specm.
cation. Chas. E. Bakyet,
Assistant Engineer.
Dated January 15, 1874.
Approved January 15, 1874.
Adolt ULris,
Engineer Board of Public Works, In charge.
I certify that the foregoing bill Is correct In
form, and that the prices are according to con
tract, and Is therefore audited in the sum of ninety-four
hundred and fourteen 9-100 dollars.
Dated J anuary 20, 1874,
Certificate No, 881. Board Public Works, 187,
vol 1,1874. Pavements tor sidewalks and carriage
ways. January 15. 1874. Hugh Murray's bill for
wcrk done on Tsew Hampshire avenue northwest,
between I and Virginia avenue, (9,414.09. Partial
measurement. Received January 20,1874. Cer
tificate No 351, for $9,414.09. H. Murray.
This Is the voucher that Mr. Bamey and my
self have explained the circumstances under
which It was made.
Q. What is the amount received! A. Three
thousand five hundred and ninety-nine dollars
and sixty-six cents.
Q. This contract numbered 1,280; Just state
to the committee what that Is. A. Andrew
Gleason.
Q But for whatl A. H street northeast,
from Delaware avenue to Eighth street.
Q. Hnw many yards of bluestone pavement
are there! A. That .is all stricken out, you
see
Q. I see It is. How many yarda were they!
A. This is a canceled bill.
Q. Answer my question. A. There is the
bluestone pavement, 13,000 yards, and then
, however. Is over an erasure, Is It
. lOOkS CO.
Q. Uow much was there originally? A. I
could cot say. It is the first time I have been
shown this voucher. I have never heud of it
before.
Q. Tou never beard before that you had
made a mistake of $100,000 In that contract
of Gleason's! A. There' was not the least
doubt
Q. Answer my question, if you please. Did
you ever hear of that before! A. No, sir.
There must be something;
Mr. Mattingly. I think there must be. That
liPO yards of blue-rock pavement bow much
lsTbc amount extended? A. Again; this left
my office in blank and, therefore, I am not re
sponsible for the amount carried out.
Q How much is there carried out 8172,500!
A. Could the auditor have been so ignorant in
doing that 13,000
Q. What was there when the auditor put the
S172.000 there! That Is what I asked you a
little while ago. How many yards of blue
rock would it Uke to amount to $172,000! A.
Ton can see that that is a clerical error, when
anything like this is said there.
Q. But when the auditor came to extend the
amount, then he-ascertained the error! A. In
the course of things you have found a little
error. Is it exactly the thing to bring such a
little clerical error here?
Mr. Mattingly. We So not bring here small
errors, but here we have brought an error
amounting to over (100,000. Mr. Cluss has
taken the ground lnlils testimony that he
ought to have the right of making the meas
urement without the order of the board and
sending It to the auditor's office.
The Witness. I have not said so. I have said
that I ought to have the Insertion of the prices,
so that the auditor afterward could go over
them. The very fact of sending blank Touch
ers is Just the thing to lead to such errors.
Q. Do not you know, Mr. Cluss, that this
was a mistake made by you! A.I wish that
Mr. Barney, who is the measurer of the board,
should be examined upon the subject.
Q. Do not you know that that was a mistake
which occurred In our office, and wascor-
reciea oy tne auaiton
No response.
Q. There was nothing criminal In making
the mistake.
The Witness. There Is a clerical error, no
doubt, which you have had the courage to
bring up here. I congratulate you upon the
feat. It is all made correct now. This Is the
messurcr'e slip. If our clerk put down the
same thins here. It Is a mistake, but it shows
to the committee the wrong system of sending
blanks down to our office.
By Mr. Hamilton: Q. Do you know whether
those figures were on that paper when you
eignea your name merer A. no, sir; no!
on It.
Mr. Hamilton. Then It was no mistake of
yours.
Mr. Mattingly. That la not It. The $172,000
was not there. But you will notice the 13,000
yards Is written over all erasure, the original
number of yards was there which Justified
si7Z,ouo. mat is where the mistake was.
Mr. Hamilton. The mistake was In yards?
The Witness. It seems to be a clerical error,
but the slip above shows It to be all right. But
the clerk most likely made the error.
Mr. Mattingly. I suppose It was a Uerical
error.
Mr. Wilson. The error Is in the measurer's
slip: Mr. Barney will explain It to you.
Mr. Mattingly. I have no doubt it is a cleri
cal error. I simply introduced it to'show that
Mr. Cluss is not Infallible by any manner of
means.
Mr. Wilson. Mr. Barney will vou be kind
enongh to explain that, to save the trouble of
calling you back I
ZSGIXEEB BABXZT RECALLED.
This Is a Tery natural mistake. The meas
urement was made by Mr. Danenhower, and
in his slip he has got one too many ciphers on
it. He omitted to put in the decimal point:
but where the clerk has made it out he has
got the 18,000 there all right. That 172,500 1
do not know how it get In there; I presume the
auditor carried out Els slip.
Br Mr. MatUnc-Iv O. But he has got 115.000.
has he not, Mr. Bamey! This slip of the
measurer is lio.uwi
The Witness. Tea; but here is the voucher
we tent down.
Mr. Morris, (auditor's clerk.) Bat don't you
know it came down 115,0001
The Witness. I do not know about that.
Cj. Would not 115,000 yards of blue-rock
pavement amount to 172,500! A. Tea, sir.
Kr. Mattingly. Hero is the measurer's state
xfient of 115,000. That la copied, and 13,000 is
frritten over It. The 115,000 yards would lust
amount to 172,S00. That is signed by Mr.
Clnss.- -
Mr. Glut r. It shows that the system is wrong .
Mr. Mattingly. It shows that mistake made
inyour office will bs corrected tr the auditor's
Mr. Gnu. ffvtbe. figures were carried out in
my office, then the auditor could look over
them again.
Mr. Mattingly. I do not' believe I want to
ask Mr. Cluss any more questions.
Mr. Cluss. I am Tery glad to hear that.
ABOUT CLTJM TtECALLSD.
By Mr. Stewart: Q. When did you find that
this system was such that it could not work
wellt A. This Terr system which Is exempli
fled here. I hare from the very first day when
I thought I am naturally a conservative, and
before 1 recommenu uu-ujxb a wouia d very
IB) tf i ttfi t gSfJfTn bwtowwrtiBgl a., po, tii,
been before me at the same place, in reeom-
ureuuiug m cuauge.- do it iook me a long wniie
until I saw that thhfwas radically Wrong, and
then afterward It took me a, long while until I
wuu.u uiuiun utucr inunDers oi toe ooara it
was wrong.
Q. HOW lOUSr Toil Wfnt In a vnumtor fn
October, 1872? -A. Yes, sir.
u. now long after that before you came to
the Conclusion that thavrr arnmvl A.
This conviction gradually matured slowly .-
i. rrosiitix monuisi a. J. am learning
eTery day.
, Q. When did you come to the conclusion
that the evstem was wrong! A. I m one of
those progressive men who try to learn every
day; so I could not say exactly. I am more
confirmed in this view than I was six months
ago.
Q. Did you think it was a vicious system six
months ago! A, A bad system I said, not a
vicious system. It was too complicated alto
gether. Q. Then the mistakes, errors, or frauds that
haTe grown up are .the result of the system!
A. Most of the errors. 1 dare v.
Q. And not the fault of the men who ad
ministered hi a. No, sir.
Q. There haTe been two sesttana of nnnrrem
since you became a member of the Board of
runiic works! A. Tes, sir.
Q. Did you- ever suggest this to Congress
uiu jQueiermm any suggestion mat mis
system should be chamredT A. I did not do
anything to create ill-feeling toward theDls-
tnci government, as they seek to maice up
here. I have done. In a quiet way, my duty.
About Mr. Forsyth and his doings T have
spoken to you, yourself, personally, many
times.
Mr. Stewart. Tes; you 'have spoken to me
about Mr. Forsyth. You said you'did not
think he was a very competent man. I recol
lect that.
The Witness. And when an opportunity
would hare occurred to speak about other
matters I would, without doubt, have ex
presses myseu in tne same way.
Mr. Stewart. I know tou Tery well, Mr,
Cluss; but I did not get the Idea from any con
versations mat we nave naa ana we nave nan
a great many our Intercourse, I believe, has
always been pleasant but I never got the Idea
that there was anything wrong about the ar
rangement of the affairs of the District, so far
as you know. You certainly never conveyed
that idea to me. Did you intend toi
The Witness. I could not say exactly. As I
said, I told you and, you know, Mr. Hlldreth
there was a peculiar opportunity of speaking
about this gentleman I have just mentioned,
Mr. Forsyth.
Mr. Stewart. I know we were talking about
the grade down there, and you said that you
thought there was a difference of opinion about
where the grade had been, and you said you
had been misled in the matter by Mr. Forsyth
in regard to Mr. HUdrcth's house. But, then,
did you say anything to me at any time that
would lead me to believe that there was such
fraud and corruption that the city was in dan
ger?
The Witness. I have never said on the witness-stand
that there was such fraud and cor
ruption; but, I dare say, as long as a year ago
I thought there were Irregularities. I meant
to go this morning and see Senator Morrill and
see whether be recollects an occurrence that
took place a short time ago, before he went
away. I went to him as chairman of the Com
mittee on Public Buildings and Grounds, he
be!nz a man In whose rood opinion I ha ve Treat
faith, and told him that f believed that the
Board of Public Works' concerns were not
done with that accuracy which I had been ac
customed to neiore, and 1 had an idea or re
signing. The 8enator told me afterward to
try and do the best I could, and to hold on.
Q. If you had thought that your colleagues
I mean the members of the Board of Public
Works had been dishonest men, you would
haTe reslcned, would you not! A. Yes, sir; if
i naa seen mem steal.
O. If tou had believed thev were steallmr.
you would have resigned! If youhad believed,
for instance, the Governor was stealing, don't
you believe you would have tendered your
resignation? A. I never thought of such a
thing; never allowed mpsclf to form such an
opinion.
Q. You believe him to be an honest man, do
you! A. I believe every man to be honest
until proven to be dishonest.
Q. You haTe seen no evidence of his dishon
esty? A. No, sir.
u. men, iryou had seen evidence or dishon
esty anywhere, you would have resigned; you
would not have been associated with them and
taken this responsibility! A. No, sir.
Mr. Mattingly suggested to you to come and
testify, why didn't you do that! Did you not
ttiinK it was proper tor an oi us to Know
good, bad or indlfiercnt--why didn't you
come up and tell the story right out! W hat
was your objection! We art all trying to find
out the truth' about this matter. What was
your objectioa-to telling of any irregularities or
frauds, or anything of that kind that existed?
A. I noticed there was an attempt to conceal
things. I have seen a couple of times state
ments maae unaer oatn tor instance, in tne
case oi Mr. Sam. Strong, the Governor said he
had ncTer seen the paper when he had signed
it. Then I did not like to be in this position.
O Wfcv didn't vnn mmi m nnrt tAll Ifc riffM
out! You were under no obligation to keep
anyining secreti a. a Knew mat you Knew
my direction If you had wanted me. You
know that I am not afraid to say anything
anywhere. I believe you hare always known
me so.
Mr. Stewart. I don't believe you have been
afraid to talk, now since you hive got here
to state anything you pleased.
The Witness. Or on any other case. When
I try to work for you, I try to work for your
best Interests.
Governor Shepherd. I have just this moment
come in, and I should like to have the witness
state what paper it was of Mr. Strong's that I
stated I had not seen, but which I had Signed.
The Witness. Pomchow or other a paper had
been prepared up here, and had the signatures
of Governor Shepherd and Mr. Magrnder to it.
It came down to the Board of Public Works
for my signature by Charles S. Johnson, who
Is here, Ithink. I don't know how it was.
Governor Shepherd. I desire the record to be
produced. I do not want such a statement as
that to go out. It Is false from beginning to
end; I never said anything of the kind; or
never spoke to this committee about It.
Mr. Stanton. The whole thing was gone over
nere, ana luny expiainea.
Governor Shepherd. Idemandthattherecord
be produced.
The Witness. I hope It will. It was stated
here that the Governor had put his signature
to that paper.
Governor Shepherd. Mr. Harrington, one of
tne counsel oi tne District, stated mat 1 naa,
at his request to me, put my signature to that
paper; I made so statement In regard to it
natever.
The Witness. I should like to see the testi
mony. Mr. Christy. The whole matter appears In
the testimony, and tbo point we made on It
was this: that Mr. Magruder, called to make
an explanation, did not state that hla name
was appended to the paper. That is the point
I made aa to Mr. Magrnder at the time, as
you will find It In the testimony.
Governor Shepherd, to Mr. Christy. Did
I make any statement about the matter!
Mr. Christy. I do not think you did.
Governor Shepherd. I made no statement In
regard to it.
By Mr. Stewart: Q. Is that the reason you
did not come up to testify! A. It was not for
me to volunteer, as the counsel will say, state
evidence. I came here when I was summoned.
Mr. Stanton. Mr. Cluss has indicated that
as one of the efforts at concealment. That Is
all. There was no concealment practiced.
The Witness. I think It was an incorrect
statement.
By Mr. 8tewart: Q. You would not come
up here when Mr. Mattingly asked you. That
seems to be a little strange. Why didn't von
come up then! A. I have stated so.
Q. You say that you were on friendly rela
tions with them and are yet. You are a mem
ber of the board and have high responsibilities.
Did you decline to come then! A. I declined
to come. I would rather be relieved from it
because I knew my testimony could not be of
much use to them.
O. Yon were not polnp to ocentrr tha nosl-
llon of defending or prosecuting anybody in
any way, were youi A. cut in mat lence mat
ter there was an advertisement offering to do
the work at much lower prices than were af
terward given, and I did not like to expose
those things before the committee. I did not
like to come up here about my associates.
Q. At the time they requested you to come
uiu you expect to come i a. vu, no, sir.
Q. How long ago was it that they requested
you to come! A. I do not remember. It was
about five or six weeks ago.
Q. You commenced preparing to come here,
iuuuhu, turn uiu, uux you prepare I nis dook
thent referring to memoranda-book of wit-
ness.j-A. Anere are any quantity of noteswhich
I thought possibly 1 might be asked, and here
are some more, and some more are in this book,'
interring to anutner oook.j Anere area Whole
ot of them here.
Q. Did you notify your colleagues of these
facts, and call their attention to them?
The Witness. Of which facts!
Q. What facts you havo collated here In this
memoranda. Did you tell them how many In
vestigations you had made, and what you had
found wrong! A. Tbey neTer asked me about
it. and so I thought they were able to take care
of themselves. If they had asked mo, I would
certainly have co-operated wim inem to inc
best of mv power, and would have fearlessly
told them what I thought to bo wrong. And!
would have told them whenever there was any
little Irregularity to acknowledge it.
Q. That Is the way to do I A. Tes, sir; be
cause in matters and things of this kind. If
you attempt any concealment, why a false
motive may Toe attributed to yon In not dis
closing, and then the things themselves be
exaggerated.
Q. You say that yon made these -preparations.
Did you tell anybody that you had
made preparations to come herej that you
ou bad no Idea of what von were poinr
to ix cauco. on to testuy to. xon had no com'
munlcatlon with' ahybody.Trat cause richt Tor:
ward herejn thlswyt "A. Tes, sir. I had
lu ,uc. uecause i aia not want to see tbe wnoie
press of .the country 'Just coming down on the
engineers: I thought It was unjust to thecoma
mitteebot then tocallnnonme. so that I could
vindicate my able assoclates,who are men of
"6iny ouu leariecsness. -
Q. Did Ton come to that mnplnilan before or
after you' were subpoenaed! k A. Before my snb-
poiua. a snouia not haTe been sunjeetea to tne
cross-fire of four learned attorneys if I had not
recollected certain fade: You know'it Is a
number of Tears aro. nnd
Q. Did the fact that the pres or tbe country
charged you engineers With these things Incense
you at au against your coueagucsi a. nv, ,
a nave no Ul-reellng toward anynouy.
Q. You haTe defended all your engineers ex
cent Mr. flertlr. Yon have not defended Mr.
Oertly. A, I could not well do it. If a man
gives SO per cent, more in a partial estimate, a
cannot defend him. It is azainst my principles.
Q. In bow many instances has he made a
mistake, and given 30 per cent, more! A. I'
find in all these partial measurements that tbey
are too full. I find a good many casca of par
tial measurement where there are about say
i onn nr i jmo vards below the partial measure
ment. If these were exceptional, then, of
course, I could have some indulgence, dui
irhfn It hnnivnn so often I could not.
Q. Mistakes occur frequently on the partof
emrineers. do they not; even wun you ana jur,
Barney! A. Of course, an error may occur
with anvbodv. exceDt the Lord mmseu.
O. Then von would not have made prepara
tions to come here If there had been no attack
upon jour' engineers! A. "1 'do not knoW
about that: I am always that kind of a man,
ready for emergencies, and sd, of course, I
made my scribbllngs made my notes about
the course oi minis.
Q. You prepared for emergencies t A. Tea,
sir.
Q. When you had made up your mind to de
fend tne engineers you commenced to maxe
this preparation. Who. did you go to I A
didn't co to anybody.
Q. Didn't tell anybody f A. No, sir. I have,
perhaps, spoken to some of the young men
that moped an opportunity wouia oeonerca
to say a good word for my engineers, and that
1 should be very glad ana very wining to ao it
(J. You did not furnish anybody a memoran
dum or what tou had maae up nere at an,
You just made up your mind that yon would
defend the engineers. Don't you think you
brought a little feeling into this matter! A. I
have none whatever.
Q. And you go away with no feeling! A
Yes. sir.
Q. And you think that as soon as you found
that there was anything wrong you would dis
close It without Keeping it concealed, iou
have served on the board for nearly two years!
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long is it since the Governor's an
swer was out A. Yes; only I saw careless
work was done from these Government meas
urements. I bad positive proof then, and I was
ashamed oi it.
O. Did you call hla attention to It then! A.
The Governor's answer was out, and the Gov
ernor didn't pay me the courtesy of sending me
a copy, and my attention waa only called to It
when It was moved In committee.
O. V hat was there In the answer that In
censed you; Just show me that! A. I didn't
seethe Governor's answer after It was pub
lished for several weeks.
Q. Show me where It is! A. These Govern
ment measurements.
Mr. Hubbell. Don't you know Governor
Shepherd didn't publish the answer; that this
committee published It! A. I understand that
the Governor has been furnished with twenty
copies.
Mr. Stewart. If tou didn't eet Tour codt
from him where did you get it from ! Did you
esK Dim lor a copy! A. in lact, i didn't know
the volume of the document tntll several weeks
after the whole thing was but; I didn't know,
indeed, therewas such a Volume as adocument
out.
Q. Did you ask for a copy of It! A. I didn't
know at all; It was a-couple of weeks before,
in fact, I knew there was a book compilation.
Q. Did you ask for . copy when you found
out! A. -I think I got one; now jou ask me
what points, last evening, on the question of
Senator Allison, I went over it.
Q. Tou need not go over It again.
The Witness. I find a mistake of $5,000 that
he suggested to me yesterday; that Is on the
flagging of B street north, between Sixth and
Sixteenth streets north.
Mr. Hamilton. You need not go oyer that
now.
Mr. Stewart. Then when the Governor's an
swer came out you made up your mind you
wouiu not nave anyining more to ao witn it
with the Governor or the- Board of Public
Works! A. Nothing of the kind.
Q. Tou made up your mind vou would not
come forward and make a statement of it
clean breast of It at that time! A. No, sir; it
took me some time, until I got acquainted
with the wholo document. The document la
so voluminous It takes a man a long time to
read It.
Q. Did It eTer occur to you that belnir asso
ciated with the system that you condemned' so
strongly, against wnicn. you nave so much led
Ing, after eighteen months, being associated
with that system for eighteen mouths without
resigning, and without communicating It to
anybody, and signing a great many of these
aocuments, appearing as tne engineer, toe re
sponsible head, did It eTer appear to you that
you were injuring your reputation in standing
in that position so long! A. I did communi
cate It to friends to Colonel W. H. Phillies.
who told me yesterday that he was glad to say
at any time mat as iar oacK as one year aco he
requested me to stay on the Board of Public
works as a cnampion oi tne united stales and
of the tax-payers of the District. He told mo
yesterday that at the time when I spoke to him
ard expressed to him some little doubts, that
ne naa necn speacmg to air. w. w. Corcoran,
and Mi. Corcoran remembered this conversa
tion clearly.
O. Who armolnted yon! A. The President
of the United States.
P. You were somewhat responsible to him.
were yon not! ACertalnly.
V, tie resides in tne District! a. xes, sir.
Q. If this tlitnr'was wrone you saw bis
message on the subleetl A. Yes. sir.
Q. Don't you think you ought- to haTe sug
gested it to him! A. It 'was not In sufficient
shape that I could tell him.
Q. There-was nothing you could suggest to
hlml A. I had my misgivings, you know;
about the wbolo work, about tbe punctuality
of everything that was done; It was not suffi
cient to mage a positive cnarge.'
Q. Did you wait for a positive charge when
tne rresiaeni naa appointed you, ana you were
made the engineer, a most Important officer In
this great city, where these' Improvements
were being made, and be had commenced tho
work in his message don't you think ,jou
ought to have spoken to him and put him on
his guard! A. It was not sufficient, any of it;
If It had been sufficient, I would have resigned.
Q. Then, after all. there is not much in it!
A. There is more In it since the Governor's an
swer was published; since j saw Government
measurements.
Q. Not much In what was paid to private
contractors! A. Well ;
Q. Was it a bad case or not! Have you been
connected now with a bad case or not! A, It
Is a bad case, of course.
Q. How lone .have you been connected with
a bad case! A. If we have to pay our certifi
cates worm tniny or lorry cents on a aoiiar
Q. Do you or not think you staid with a bad
case before you notified those who put confl
uence in you wimout staying too long) A.
No, sir.
Q. You think you came out at the right
time! A. No, sir; I do not think I didI did
not want to put myself in that position, I'did
not create the occasion.
Q. You did not create, tbe .occasion; you
thought It was proper to wait until this time.
There has been a large amount of money spent!
Q. Was It not your duty there, as an engi
neer, ii mis maenmery wouia not worK, ana
waste the people's money, was not your duty
to put your foor right on it then! A. I do not
think so. It is a matter for Judgment what to
do.
Q. I am sorry to hear vou say that, that tou
could be connected for eighteen months with a
machine, whereby the people's money was
being squandered! A. I do not say so, Senator.
Q. You do not think so! A. Idonotsayso.
Q. You hare told us that you 'did not think
1 will put the case : Do you think that you
could be connected as engineer, In the most
responsible place in the Government for eigh
teen mouths, where the money was being squan
dered, and 'not know It? A. I haveguarded
the public interests as well as a man could
during the long time I have been there.
Q. You believe -you could be there fn that
place and not know it: you believe thatyou
could fill the "most important nlace. where vnh
signed more vouchers than all the balance of
mem put togetuer; wnere you nave tne meas
urement of all the work-, &c-be there eigh
teen months, and there be a general system of
fraud going on, ana you noi snow it I A. I
have not said so. -
Q. I do sot charge yon with saying so. I
mean, could yqu have been, there that long,
there being a general systenVof fraud, and you
not know It t A. jDf course If there had been
a system of fraud I would have known It. I
do not say the system is a fraudulent one. It
was not a good way of doing "business.
0. There was nothlnz sufficiently Important
that caused yon to feel It y6ur duty to either
come out ana memorialize Congresi,or to speak
to the President, who lad reposed this confi
dence in you! A. No, slrt I have a more quiet
vtay of doing my things generally, I am none
of these noisy men.
Q. That Is not noisy by any means. The
President did not appoint you because you were
noisy, but appointed you supposing you to be a
first-class engineer, a man of talent and experi
ence, and just the msn to put is the breach of
this thing. That It undoubtedly what the Presi
dent thought! A. I have said the engineer de-
PWtjajgj jj open to t&y firjcjffi crjfclfm as
fares the engineer department" proper is con
cerned c j - -r .''" 7
Q.'But you say that things that oufeht to
haTe gone into the englneeffs department, did
not go there.' Was not that, something which
tou should have felt at liberty to call on any
body to aid in remedying! A. I may have done
that, but the question Is, whether I had suffi
cient reason for taking an open course of en
mity. Q. Tour judgment was thst It was best to
keep quiet until thelnveftlgating Committee
called on you toward the last end, and let it
come out then! A. I thought when that Inves
tigating Committee would have called on me'
the first day, I should have'spoken just as fear
lessly as thelast. t have said so to the mem
bers of the committee.
The Chairman. Where Is the office of the
Board of Public Works! A. Four-and-a-half
street, between' Pennsylvania avenue and C
street.
Q. On what story! A. Tbe vice president's
office Is on the second story.
Q. I am speaking of the office of the Board
of Public Works! A. Tbey have no office
proper. Tbe vice president's office, that Is on
the second story. There we hold our meetings,
and because we bold our meetings .there I
would call it tbe office of the board.
Q. How many rooms have you there In the
office of the Board of Public Works proper,
which you callithe vice president's office! A.
Four rooms, and then
Q. That is the office over where the papers
of the Board of Public Works are kept! A.
Tes, sir.
Q. That Is In the second story! A. Tes, sir.
Q. Where is tbe engineer's office! A. In the
third story.
Q. In the same building! A. Tes, sir.
Q. Above the office of the board! A. Tes,
sir.
Q. Do you go to your office every day! A.
Tes, sir.
Q. How often do you go Into the office of
tne rjoam or ruDiic norics generally! a. I
think twice a day.
Q, Every day in the year! A. Tes, sir.
Sometimes I may be absent. I may not. pos
sibly, go in every day, but I am In tbe habit-of
coming once in the morning and once in the
afternoon.
Q. Did you generally find Governor Shepherd
there, when he was vice president of tbe
boara! A. I think that Governor Shepherd,
sometimes for three or four weeks, did not
come Inside of the building last summer.,,
Q. When he was there, however, you saw
him! A. I went to the engineer's 'office, and if
tne yice presiaenx wantea anvtnmg irom me
he would send or come up stairs.
Q.. Did he come up! A. O, yes; oc
casionally. Q. He would came up stairs, and you would
go down stairs? A. Yes, sir.
Q. I want you to tell this committee what
your opinion is of Mi;. Oertly aa to integrity?
A. Well, my opinion was always good. I have
said so already in my testimony.
Q. I mean your present opinion of him as an
engineer or, Integrity! A. well, I still would
not say anything against his character.
Q. Do you belieTe, or not, that he Is an engi
neer Of Integrity t A. Well, I think so.
Q. You think he Is I A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you think he had any Instructions
from any member of the board to make exces-
Of that at all. I do not think he had any In
structions to mase over-measurements. When
the Government appropriations were made, the
members of the board liked to see the measure
ments foot up as much as possible, but I do not
think that any positive orders were given in
any way or shape.
Q. When you ealled Mr. Oertlv'e attention
to this large estimate for John O. Evans this
partial estimate which has been testified to
and he said to you as an excuse for his action
that he was directed to do so, did ho tell you
In that statement that be was directed to make
an excessive measurement! A. No, sir; he did
not.
Q. Or to make true measurements! A. The
question did not come up
Q. The question did not come up! A. No,
sir.
Q. It did not then occur to you that thero
had been excessive measurements! A. When
ever such a point came up I.would, make notea
in my papers, and then in my own way I would
go along and make general comparisons.
By Mr. Stewart! Q. I see that you entertain
tho same opinion now that you .did in Novem
ber last in regard to Mr, Oertly? A,Well, yes.
Q. Most of these measuremectsTfere made
since then! A. I think that the system has
made him more careless iban he was before.
By Mr. Mattingly. Q. Jilt measurements
were made before this! A. But they were not
published; I did not know them.
By the Chairman: (j..Do you think that
Mr. Oertly made these measurements for John
O. Evans, knowing that he was maklni: exces
sive measurements, or do you think he com
mitted a mistake as an engineer! A. I think
he committed a mistake, with a ,riew to ac
commodate those folks as much as he could.
I do not think: he meant to commit anything
that was wrong.
q. Youdonotthlnk he Intentionally made
an excessive measurement! A. A friendly
intercourse of twenty years wonld make me
very slow in believing anything like that,
becauseT have 'always esteemed Mr. Oertly
very highly, and indeed I felt very sorry to see
those measurements; more sorry than If I had
made them myselH
Q. Do you know of any final estimate haying
been made to any contractor In excess of the
real amount bf work done! A. No, sir I do
not recollect any at all now.
Q. You do not know now of any final esti
mate having been made to a contractor In ex
cess of tha work- done! A. No, sir; I do not
think that there waa any.
Q. Does that apply to all the work done since
you have been engineer in charge! A. I think
It applies to all tbe work, to the best of my
knowledge.
Q. If any such estlmatehad been made would
you not know Ut! A. Whenever they were I
tried to find them out and corrected them.
Q. You have seen these Irregularities going
on from time to time, which, of course, put you
upon careful inquiry I ' A. Tes, sir.
3. JSLICKEfJgDERriB, JB., RECALLED.
By Mr. Stewart. Q. Tou have been making
more surveys! AsjI have, air. a
q. Did. you bave.wlth you the person who
made the original measurements? A. J do not
know that I had, but jJ applied at the en
gineer's office for tbe profiles, -icroas-scfttions,
ana maps ot tne streets that a was going to ex
amine, stating what I was going -,ta do,-and
tbey were furnished tome, audi. have, since
then communicated, wllhr those .-gentlemen,
more or less; not with the subordinates In all
cases, but with Mr. -Cluss ahd Mr. Barney.
My appllcatloD, as I stated before,.ws made
to Mr. Cluss formally made to him. He
generally referred me to Mr. Barney for addi
tional facts.
I may say further, that I have asked for ex
planation of discrepancies, and tbey have, in
part, been given'tb at, and in part they have
not.
By the Chairman. Q. What measurements
have you made, sir! A, J have examined
Twelfth street., from F to P, East Capitol
street to a certain extent, New Tork avenue
and B street. I would, be glad to state further,
if it Is the pleasure of, the committee to hear
me, as briefly as possible, n reply,, to some of
me suggestions oi oenator.stewart. a under
stood him to ask me whether I had the person
with tne who. had made tbo original measure
ments. I said I had not, but tbe measure
ments that I made, for example, on Twelfth
street, were confined to the earth-work, and I
had the profiles, notes, 'and cross-sections
furnished me by Mr. Barney, who took them
himself, and what reason there was for him to
be with me when I examined them, I do "not
understand. '
Mr. Sten art: Oh, that is all right; there Is no
objection to that,' but this is my point; If it
involves a week or ten days to re-examine this,
then I object to spending the time of the com
mittee. If It can be ' tested so" that we can get
it In a report this session, f am In favor of
putting it in. a warn to see an enu oi it, mat
Is all.
By Mr. Wilson,, (to the witness:) Q. HaTe
you your statements with you! A. I havo tho
results, if you refer to that.
Q. Are yoa ready to report them! A. Tes,
sir.
Q. Tou haTe this from tbe data that was
furnished you by the engineers of the .Board
of Public Works, havo you! A. Substantially;
not always absolutely, as I should have to ex
plain. For example, on East Capitol street
they gave me the notes that they bad, but I
found that they were simply notes giving the
contour Surface of the ground. They had
made no notes after the work was done, and
could sot give me tbe grade, so I could" tell
the dlflVrence between the top' of the ground,
and as it was until after It had been done, and
I bad to- make that myself.
By the Chairman: Q. Hay you made such
an examination .and- measurementof these
streets that you tve pamed, and of which you
have an abstract there, as to satisfy yourself
with reference to the accuracy of your meas
urements! -A. I have..
Q. Thenwe will have It. .
Mr. Mattingly. I submit to the cpmmlttet
ibat . notwithstanding Mr. " Bllckensderfer
states I nave no doubt states truly, as a mat
ter of course that he is satisfied with the ac
curacy of his own measurements: that it Is so
more than proper under the circumstances,
that his results should be Submitted to us in
order that we may save time, and have them
examined, and if we fixed them, as Ee states,
accurate, and caxmot account, for any.dlscf ep
andes, they will be cheerfully admitted; and if
they .can be accounted for' they will be ex
plained. It strikes me that by doing so, it
would save a good deal of time.
Mr. Hamilton. I understand thai he has re
ported his results to the engineers of the board.
jur.msuiugiy. r o navo not ne aru mem.
The Witness. I never went "to the counsel.
but I did explain the difference to the engi
neers. I did not suppose it was necessary for
me to.
Mr. Mattingly. He has been to Mr. Cluss.
but certainly it Is unnecessary for me to make
any statement aoout tnat.
Ttj? Wltnffl. -M. MMUnglyTflsMp correct
a factV -An Inference" might be drawn from
your remarks that-1 had-been to Mr, Clues,
and, there fore, to nobody: else, perhaps- J have
been to Mr. Cluss, Mr. Bamey, and Mr. Oertly.
I have had the explanations of all three; and I
have-request ed.tfaem,'lf they could; to" commu
nicste with Mr. Forsyth: but I have not gone
to Mr. Forsyth personally and hunted him up.
I have not had the time. -
Q.-Have you left with either of those gen
tlemen a copy of your results! A. I have not
glventhemacopy.
Qs You have merely talked to them about It!
A- no, sir; a nave snown tnem my ngures ana
told them the differences. I am sot sure that
I have in all cases told them the actual differ
ences, but stated that I could not make It agree
aa they did, and I made It considerably less,
althougb, in some cases, I stated: what I did
make It. I believe I did fully.
Mr. Christy. Mr. Chairman, there Is one
angle oi tms triangular contest mat tncy ao
not seem to take Into consideration at all, that
Is ourselves. Tbe only way In which we can
get this information Is by haying it appear here,
unless we have the privilege of examining it at
some future tlme,after the gentlemen are con
tent witn tne examination maat oy tnem-
scives.
Tbe Chairman. I think there will be no
trouble about the matter at all. There may be
a little delay, but wewlll try to do justice to
everyooay as neany as we can.
Mr. Christy. It was upon that hypothesis
thatl addressed myself to the chairman. I
think If Mr. Bllckensderfer Is ready he might
give us his statement and then itean be printed,
and the gentlemen can make any corrections
they desire. I think that la the shortest way.
Mr. Stanton. A 'mere statement of the amount
of the discrepancies was no guide to our engin
eers for a review of the details of his measure
ments.
Mr. Hamilton. Tes, but be has done his work
on your measurements, as I understand It; he
has done the work on the material and data
furnished in the office. ' "
The Chairman. Well,geatlemen,thereseems
to be some controversy. The committee will
retire a moment, and wo will endeavor to come
to a conclusion satisfactory to tou all.
J The Committee hereupon retired for con
tatlon, and returning, the Chairman Interro
gated tne witness as ioiiows:j
Q. Mr. Bllckensderfer, have you reduced to
writing the result of your examinational A.
Tes, sir; in a short, succinct way, as I did
before.
Q. In the same manner as you did 'before!
A. Tes, sir; substantially.
I will read it:
Twelfth tlrttt, bttiettn I and P.
Yards.
Excavating, as calculated from notes - 25,533
AddltlocaTat f ntersection of Massachusetts
avenue -------- 744
Total 34,437
Inclusive In the two feet or grading covered
by price of pavement ..... 7,289
Balance ....... 19,148
Allowed to contractor ..... 41,090
Overestimate to contractor, supposing him
entitled to total quantity .... 14.S53
Overestimate to costractor,deducting2 feet, 21,Si2
Overpayment to contractor over total quantity
of earthwork, 7,2sl.M, ores per cent.
Overpayment, deducting two foot covered by
price of pavement, H,S8.0, or se per cent.
Eait Capitol tlrttt.
Excavation, estimated, First to Sec
ond street .... 14,383 yards.
Excavation, estimated, Second to
Fourth street ... 19,000 yards.
Total .... 29,389 yards.
Included In 2 feet covered by price ol
pavement .... 9,722 yards.
Balance .... 19,e7 yards.
Allowed to contractors - 43,870 yards.
Overestimate to contractors, suppos
ing them entitled to total quan
tity 14,481 yards.
Overestimate, deducting theSfeet- 24,203 yards.
Now, in regard to B street. I have no state
ment. I made an examination with a view of
determining the 'accuracy of the quantities
that had. been charged to the Government, and
I made up my mlndthey were about right, and
so I made no statement about them. I should
ha7e said on But Capitol street excuse me
I got a little befori my statement. The B
street ststement should haTe been made after
ward. On East Capitol street I have likewise
a statement of tbe amount of curbing, 7,491
feet. The amount in the touchers is con
siderably larger, and they represent con
siderable quantities as being set, taken up
again and reset, and taken up, so that I could
not understand II. I applied to Mr. Oertly,
whose signature Is to the voucher, for explana
tion, and be stated that certain quantities had,
after being set, reset, and taken up, been finally
taken up and carried off the street entirely, and
certain other quantities were the quantities
that were now on the street. I have made a
statement of the two here, but I do not know
whether the committee caro about their going
in here.
Mr. Stewart. Let them go lu.
The Witness. Then I will read it.
The Witness then read as follows:
CCRB130 AV0U3T OS STKIET, 7,491 TZXT.
1872. Pavnuntt to Contractor
May 27. Setting 2,018 feet new e-lneh
curu, a. cents .... f t oq
iIeettlng4S2feet old Mnch curb,
2 cents - - - - - 121 10
July 22. 4,e-ti feet new s-lsch curb and set.
ting, f i.a o,wi h
2,603 feet old t-lnch curb, reset, 25
cents 023 to
Taking up 1504 feet Mnch curb,
e cents . - - - 150 35
Taking up 3,860 feet 8-Inch curb,
7 cents ------ 270 20
Taking up 4,803 feet curb In cos
sequence of change of grade,
7 cents 342 CI
4,803 feet 6-Inch curb reset, SO cts. 1,4(7 so
1873.
July 9. 0,015 feet e-lochnewgranltecnrb
- ana seiuug, -i.re - -iz,sui so
253 feet 6-Inch new granite circu
lar curb and setUng,-$2.03 . 518 ei
-3.C74 95
These Quantities were the ones represented
to me as being on the street, mine being only
7,41)1. I asked for the explanation of the dlf-
terence. anu hi. ueruy saia mat in measuring
tbe curb, his Impression was, they had meas
ured tho returns that were put into the inter
secting street, back to the building line, Instead
of simply what was on the face of the street.
Those spaces belonged to tbe intersecting
streets; but he ssld as the contractor bad put
those In, they were measured lu, and put Into
tms voucher. Aiaxing allowance lor mat, i
find the quantity is just aboutright. I do not
recollect the figures exactly. That is all that I
have ou East Capitol street.
ilr. Wilson. ' now mucn euro is reairy
charged to that street! A. The whole of this
is1 charged to the street. The whole of this
work, .
'Q. And it.was laid there by the contractor.
Who did the curbing for that street, as I un
derstand yool- A, There were several contrac
tors, aa I understand.
Governor Shepherd. There was a change of
graae, cuange oi wore.
Tho Witness. I asked the auditor whether
this street had been credltcd.with this material
that was hauled off, and he said then) was no
credit, but he supposed it ought to be done.
This is all I have except--
Governor Shepherd. Did the auditor state to
you that there had been additional work 'done
on that street since tbe assessment was- made
which would overbalance the amount of curb
ing overcharged.
The Witness. No, sir.
Governor Shepherd. That Is the fact. Mr.
Wilson has brought this subject up before.
' Mr. Wilson. When Mr. Forsyth -was on the
standi asked him about this.
The Witness. That is all I have in regard to
actual 'measurements, except another thing
that catne up Incidentally. I will explain to
tbe committee, and they can do with It what
they have a mind to. I noticed In the report
of the Board of Public Works in 1S73 that the
tabular statement of areas of reservations
seemed to havo been gotten up, as I under
stand It, with a view of .making out a state,
menu of what was properly chargeable to these
arcs on the Government areas mi account of
sewerage; and walking over New Tork avenue,
with a view of making some examinations
there, X happened to get on some of these
reservations, and they were very small, one
especially, at the intersection of H and Thir
teenth streets, and It seems to me It was all In
the streets, so I turned back. When I got to
my room and looked at the table again, bo
cause I thought I had noticed that there was a
considerable area there, and I found that there
was considerable area there; and then Iwent to
work and measured some of those areas on
New Tork avenue as I was golog up and down
and calculated them, merely as a matter of
comparison, with the tables. .1 have the re
sults here. But otherwise than that I did not
examlne'New Tork. avenue; Indeed, I did not
hive any time to make an examination of quan
tities particularly, and I merely made these
measurements as a sort of matter of curiosity.
By the Chairman: Q- Po you regard them
sufficiently accurate to test the accuracy or In
accuracy of what hod been done by the engi
neers! -Ai Tes, sir; they are accurate measure
ments. 'OovernoV Shepherd. It-longs to the Got-
eminent in fee-simple, wbetherft Is an avenue
or reservation; whether were is anyining in tne
question after all. It is Government property
whether you. consider It as avenues or reserva
tions," Mr. Cluss. I think It Is important to be shown
to show the errors of the District,, :
- Tbe Chairman. We will hear It-
The Witness. I will state that I noticed, upon
a further examination of the .table, thaWthe
table purportedto. give the anu ol all the
avenues, ci tne streets, ana me .reservations
In addition, and if tha areas of the streets and
reservations are -properly given In .that table-
that Is, if that Uble gives the areas of the av-
emies-anu streets way, mcu, meso uru un
questionably Inaccurate, because, I noticed,
noon an examination of .them, that (he differ
ence between the quantities that I made and
those that I found In, the table 'could be sub
stantlally reconciled by Including the half of
the width, of the adjacent streets, as well as
that which was within, the bulldlng-llne. then
I would get about the area that was in the
table.
Q. Is not that probly what was dene! A. I
.nmvu.Ul,,,. ' '
', jrv v ii "
Q. And then it is a simple nuestiou whether
,that much of the areas-ol -the streets was da-
jajciucu or not ,
The Chairman. Let us hear what you have
cot.
- Mr. Stewart1. If it is on that theory, Just that
i act win enanierus to investigate it.
Mr. Stanton. It is a question then to be de
termined; not a matter of calculation.
Mr. Stewart. Let them go in.
Witness then read as'foHdws:
8
Areas xesirvsUotu.
rut. rut.
2,850 10,600
82-10 S300
9,071 2260
(.It 22,950
0 2,700
Bet. IT. Y. av., B It. north,
and sq. 251, ...
Bet. IT. Y. aye., U St. north,
and istbrst. west, -Bet-N.
Y. are., I st. north,
10th and 11th sts. west, .
Bt- N. Y. ave.. I st- north,
11th and 12th sts. west. -Bet,
If. Hi ave., U st. north,
and 20th it-west,
By the Chairman: Q. What would.it be
measuring as tou have the other streets!'' A.
If you will Uke the factof tbe width of the
streets adjacent; 'you will get Just about
iu,auu. A did not measure it accurately; out
finding these differences, I took the map and
drew the lines', and estimated by scale what
the addition would be. andUlnd It makes 'just
about tbll,andl epppose that la what it Is;
mat is me casei explained to tne committee
in my previous testimony. Indeed, that waa
cine of the things that drew my attention to ft.'j
a j wjc wuairoiai:-. iiust it juut impres
sion, as to "whether or "not. these' Qlscrepancies
can all be "'explained upon the theory bf tbe
New York.avenoe, taking in the otljer, streets!
AiThey seemed to-be-1 am not quite sure
whether I examined them all. But I know-1
examined several. First I drew a line: in the
avenues to see whether that would reconcile
it, but It did not; and then I found by omitting
tne avenues ana putting in nan tne adjacent
streets always two streets and. air avenue
forming the reservation by omitting the
avenues and taking-half the adjacent streets em
the two sides of the reservation, calculating
that in, seemed to reconcile tbe difference.
Mr. Stewart. Have you reported all the
cases you have examined?
Mr. Stanton. Have 'you requested any ex
planation In regard to this discrepancy this
last table! A. No, sir; I only finished that yes
terday when I was here In the Capitol.
By Mr. Wilson: Q. With reference to these
last tables you have mentioned, I understand
you that the tables you refer to are those tables
that are made up for tbe purpose of showing
the area, avenues, and reservations for which
the Government should be taxed! A. I believe
that Is the caption of the table. If you will
give me a copy of the report of 1873 1 will refer
to It in a moment.
Q. Can you tell from your examination
whether or not the areas have been duplicated
In this mode of measurement! I want to know
whether you can tell from your examinations
whether or not the areas have been duplicated
In this mode of making up these tables! A. I
can only tell by assuming that this table, on
page S3 of this report, the caption of which
reads the tabular statement of areas of avenues
and streets In the drainage-sections of the city
of Washington, then giving the square feet and
the avenues, and the square feet and the streets
assuming that these are the areas of the
streets and ayenues absolutely
Mr. Stanton. Including the reservations t
The Witness,. No, sir; excluding everything
else, hat they are the areas of the streets and
avenues. Assuming that to be true, then
these quantities have undoubtedly been dupli
cated. Mr. Stanton. Is not that the same as assum
ing-that they have been duplicated! A. No,
sir.
Mr. Stanton. I want to know whether you
can tell If they have been duplicated except by
measuring the entire extent of the avenues
themselves! A. Tou cannot tell It as a mat
ter of fact," but if this table, as I read it and as
it purports to be, contains the areas of tbe
streets and avenues, then this additional table,
which purports to contain the areas of the
reservations besides, has unquestionably dupli
cated a portion of the street, as far as these
particular cases are concerned.
Governor Shepherd. As I understand yon,
that remark only applies to these points on
theso avenues where these little reservations
are formed; It does not apply to those large
reservations, such as the Capitol reservation,
17 ! A. That I do not know.
Q. Tou are only speaking of these points on
the avenue which are called reservations, and
measured as reservations! A. I am only speak
ing of the points I examined.
Q. These are such, points where two streets
Intersect, Just the sharp points! A. Tes, sir.
Witness. I should like to make one remark
In reference to the. testimony as'It is printed.
In my testimony, as It Is printed on tho last
exainlnvUoo, page 1,999, It reads: "Qj May 11
not have been that it was because they counted
the street as being really from building line to
building line, Instead of from curb to'curb! A.
I do not see why that would Influence it at all.
My own impression is, that if the Government
Is properly chargeable at all with any work
here, it is perfectly correct the principle that
tbey adoptexcept with regard to the intersec
tions, as I explained yesterday by the diagram,
as you will recollect." This, as I read It,
makes me Indorse .the nrlndnla noon which
those measurements were mode. I do not re
call the language exactly I used, but I do not
think I used any language to convey that Idea,
or, if I did, it is certainly foreign from anything
I ever Intended to convey.
jur. Stewart, i aia not so unaerstana it.
Tbe Witness. I never did mean- to Indorse
any of the principles. I did not mean to ex
press any opinion upon, It at all. And the only
explanation I could make Is this, that the plan
or the mode of measuring would be correct,
except in regard to intersections, providing
everything that was within the'llmlta of the
atenues was left out. It seems to me that I
have a faint recollection of "making some ex
planations In a diagram of that kind, drawing
the avenue lines, and stating that then out
side thtavenues, outside pf the.-intersections,
there would be in. that case but very little left.
Tbe Chairman. I know bow difficult it is for
the reporter toget statements of witnesses
when explanations are made"by means of dia
grams, maps, and so on'.
The Witness. I did not mean to express an
opinion in regard to that at an.
TZSTIMOUT OF W. O. DATIOS.
W. O. Dayton,' sworn.
By Mr. Wilson: Q. Where do you reside!
A. On Twelfth street, Washington.
Q. How long have yon resided here I A.
Since 1850, witn-tne exception or a few years l
have lived in South Carolina
Q. What is your occupation! A. Con
tractor. "
Q r How long -have you been at contractor t
A.-1 think I first engaged in It in 1813.
Q. Haveyoa bad contracts under the Board
of Publlc.Worksl. A-I.have. done some little
contracting under the board.
Q. What is thexharacter of the contracting
you have done under, the Board of Public Works!
A. ripe sewerage.
Q. Any other contracting! A. No. sir.
Q. From whom did you procure four con
tracts I A. From the Board of Public Works.
Q. To whom did you' make your'.applica
tions ! "A. .To the Board Ol.Publlc Works:
ij. ttnar extent oi contracts aia you nave f
A. Do tou mean those I have worked!
Q. -Tea, sir. A. About 1,500 feet of pipe-1
sewer.
Q. Did you have any thatYou didn't execute
yourself! A. Tes, sir.
y. wnaiwasuau A.itnoaeisiana avenue.
Q. For what! A. For wood pavement.
Q. Who did execute tlat contract! A I
could not tell you. I went away shortly after-
ward.
Q. What did yoa do with it! A. I disposed
of It.
Q. To whom! A, To Flnnegan & Nesdale.
tj. What waa the extent of that contracti-A.
Do you .mean in yams! -
Q. Yea; sir- A-I could not tell you hardly;
about. 50,00Q yards.! .
Q.How lonrr did you have that contract be
fore you disposed of it!. A. Probably thirty
nve ciays. 0 .
Q. At what rate did you dispose of it! A. I
think about Scents a yard..
Q. In what way were you paid! In money.
Q. Did you have any arrangement with Fiq
negan & Nesdale that thev were to da the
work before you got the contract! A. No, sir:
V. iou urn got tne contract on your own
responsibility ! A.I intended to work the coo-
tract myseir, but i received an appointment
from the Government and tha contract waa not
as profitable as I thought-it would be; and I
disposed otlt. , "
o. Da you kno anything of any other sales
or transfers of contractslA. No, sir. I would
state to the honorable gentlemen that a party
came to me one night to sell a contract to my
house:
j. Who was that! iA.I think his name is
Seltx.
' C'.Did you purchase it tram him! A. No,
sir.
Q. What was done-about It! A. I never
knew"untlIIsaw'Mr8elU.
-Q.You.were not-present at -the time -the
trade was made between Belts- and Taylor! j-A .
No, sir.- -
-The Chairman. Counsel for the memorial.
Ista filed, with.ua a week ago a brief: have you
hid copies! ..
Mr.Mattinglj. Yes, sir.
jThe Chairman, When will Tou.ba rearlT
fileTOurs!, ,
M, Mattingly. Probably oa Monday or
Tuesday; Tucadsy at the outsldo. '
Mr. Stanton. We cannot very well do it until
the testimony Is all In,
The-Chslrman. Have you any further testi
mony that you know of now that you want to
submit! -
Govemo!1 Shepherd. Colonel Sinn i h-n
who wishes to make a statement In mr-nlta
plr. Pckjnjdjiftr'o statement .
Mr. MatUnjly. I would like to Inquire of
me committee woetner there is any inrtner
iwuimjot mab tucy inteua to give in.
The Chairman. I know of no other except
Mr. Wilson wants to examine Mr. Cluss pro
bably on Monday.
Mr. Wilson. My examination will be very
brief. I only want to Inquire of Mr. Cluss in
reference to some of these statements touch
ing the amount of money that is claimed tn he
due from the Government for work done
around Government property; a point with
reference to which we have been expressly re
quired to make a report. I want to get some
accurate statement in regard to that.
ADOLr CLCSS XECALLED.
By the Chairman: Q. Have you any knov-J-edge
of tbe amount of work done by tbe Board
of Public Works for tbe United Stales! A.
Well, I have the vouchers, you know, of the
contracts that were paid all around the Capitol
here.
Q. WD1 you make us a statement by Mon
day! A. I will try to, if I only see clearly what
It Is. It is hardly possible for me
Mr. Mattingly. These were the very vouchers
signed by Mr. Cluss; that pile 1 had here.
Mr. Wilson. Then I want to interrogate him
about those, if those are the ones.
The Witness. Those vouchers have been ant
of my control ever since I signed'them, to the
treat oi my anowieage.
Governor Shepherd. They have been In the
engineers omee Irom tnat day until night be
fore last. '
Tbe Witness. Tbey might have been in the
private drawer of Mr. Oertly ; they are not In
our record.
' Governor Shepherd. They were sens Is the
Aistncs uommittee or tne noose.
' The Chairman. Has the District Committee
made-an investigation of the amount due to'
the Government! " v" -
The Witness That I don't know, Mr, Chair
man. '
Mr. Hubbell.' I think "they- have' that yery
question under consideration.
Governor 'Shepherd. I have this statement
here, showing the- expcndltures'on each and
every avenue in the city of Washington, made
by the corporation of Washington since 1813,
and by tha Board of Public Works, with the
payments made ou account of the same by the
United Statea Government. This has been
compiled from the vouchers of the old corpo
ration, which an in the adjoining- room, open
for tbe inspection of the committee, and is a
statement from the records showing that there
Is yet due by the United States Government
$1,010,801.60.
Mr. Wilson. Who madeit out!
Governor Shepherd. It was made out by the
clerks In the office. Mr. Thomas D. 'Vi inter
has had charge of It. It was made by him and
the other clerks In the office of tbe auditor of
the Board of Public WorkX
The Chairman. Perhaps Mr. TVinter had bet
ter be called and sworn In regard to It.
Governor Shepherd. Perhaps It would be
well.
TZSTIUOXT Or THOMAS D. WIXTEB.
Thomas D. Winter sworn.
Q. State your relation to the Board Of Pub
lic Worksf A. I am employed in making
special assessments oi property, wnicn nas
been my duty ever since I have been there.
Q. Did von make anT portion of this state
ment that Is now in tbe hands of the Gov
ernorl A. I went through all those vouchers
myself, with Mr. lorsyth and another gentle
man In the office there. We took those vouch
ers, and he apportioned what was properly bc-lon?ln-r
to the United States. I then re-exam
ined those vouchers all of them and nave
them here In boxes; and from tbcm I made
tms statement oi eacn avenue, ana aiso a re
capitulation of the same.
Q. Made tbe statement from the Touchers!
A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Mattlnzlv: Q. There is a detailed
statement there, and a number of vouchers are
referred to, showing the amount! A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And then a general abstract of the whole!
A. Ytt, sir.
The Chairman. It is not worth while to go
Into muah detail about it.
The Witness. It will not take long. There
are two scries here of statements. Tbey bsve
been made up at separate times. I kept them
apart, and they aro In separate boxes, com
mencing with the main avenue, and going
through all the avenues for which the vouchers
called, where expenses were made ou account
of these avenues. I then made a xecapltula-
IIUU Vlcui ui lucaituuii. uib u.vuu.v. nui
done on that avenue, and the money the total
I believe to be correct of $1,010,661.60, for
which we propose to show.vouchers ana otucr
things to corroborate tho statements which
have been set forth in detail.
Q. These are the detailed statements! A.
Yes, sir.
y. IMS is tne recapitulation oi tne wnoie
amount of each avenue and the grand total!
A. Each avenue shows the voucher referred to,
together with the square, and It states the kind
of work embraced on each voucher and when
the work was done, and the amount. So that
it can be referred to without any difficulty.
Tou can have any vouchers for any one of
these statements.
By Mr. Wilson'. Q. That commenced at what
time! A.I think it commenced as far back, as
1813.
Q. And comes down to what period! A. To
1871.
Q. The time the Board of Public Works took
charge! A. Tes, sir.
Q. Have you mode up lu that a complete
ststement of all tbe amounts that were charge
able to tbe Government of the United States on
account of work done ou avenues! A. Along
the avenues and crossin-rs.
Q. From 1813 up to the time the Board of
rubiic worn took potsessiom a. i under
stand It is up to the time the Board of Public
Works took possession! That Is the way this
work is done by the old corporation, and up to
the time the board went Into operation.
O. How did you get at that! A. From the
vouchers and accounts that are in these boxes,"
which tbe committee can see at any time. .
Q. Tou think you have omitted nothing! A.
No, sir; I went oyer them very Carefully.
Q. And you have put In all that you could
find! A. Tel, air; all that was given to me by
Mr. Forsyth. He went over the .vouchers him
self. Q. Did you have to rely oa Mr. Forsyth for
what bad been done on Use Avenues to see how
much was chargeable to the Government! A.
some of the vouchers;were for different ave
nues; some of them embraced some streets
with avenues, and he spportioned off what was
chargeable to the avenues and marked It on
tbe outside of the paper.
Q. The accuracy of your results, therefore,
would depend on theaceuraey of the Informa
tion given you by air. roraytn. .Ai tjo isr as
those vouchers are concerned, that have streets
and avenues fa them both; but then there are
some TCUchers-wBlcb. ore avenues alone; that
win enaw.ior itaeir.t
O. I say thai so far at he had to apportion
this between the - streets and the -avenues, you
had to take, his statement, and yoa are not re
sponsible for any errors there mlgnt.be there
A. No, sli; not at all; this Is a work of his.
By the Chairman: J. But jou have the
vouchers! A. Tes. sir:
Q. The vouchers referred to here you have!
A. xes, sir; ana mey can oe reierreato in a
doment.
Q. And those will verify his appointments?
A. I can verify hit, because It is tn figures- He
has It written down In pencil on tbe back, how
much for New Hampshire and .how much for
Maine, One voucher may include four or five
avenues.
By Mr. Wilson: Q. Iu making up this state
ment, what you mean to say is this: you found
some vouchers that embrace both streets and
avenues! A. Tes, sir.
Q.'And- Mr. Forsyth would, tell you how
much of that belonged to the avenue) A. No.
sir; he did not tell me that; ho put It down
himself.
Q. He would put It, down! A. He would
mark it-on the baek ol the Toucher. Under
stand me: Mr. Forsyth and a clerk la the office,
who. was here, put down the amount as Mr.
Forsyth called them, off' to, him, picking out
such Touchers as appertained to the arenucs.
He would call them out and put them down?
After- they were down; I took all the papers
and the Touchers, and with three orfourdcrka
I called off the vouchers-and-they checked off
tne amounts against tnem, ana i went over
them after that. But the original statements
put down are, not made by me; however, I will
guarantee mat tney are correct.
' Q. I am not.talklng-about the accuracy of
your putting aown your ngures. A am talking
about whether you are In any way responsible.
or havo 'any knowledge as to the accuracy of
tne amounts tnat were put down by Mr.
Forsyth, as to what appertain, as to ayenues!
I Q. Tou do not know anything about lit A.
No. sir. I -will 'say this- much, that tha
vouchers themselves, many of them, 'call for
vcuucvi biuud, ouuic ui loiBru call I0r aTSUUeS
and streets. He being familiar: of ent-ru.
with that; went over the .vouchers and appor-
ktuucu vut. nun- nu po-pcxiy cnargca to tne
avenues. - ,
By Mr. 8ewart: Q. Da he have any record!
A. That I cannot tell'you.
By Mr. WUson:-Q,Did he make' that sepa-
rauuu tuerejnyoux presence A. No, air; not
at the time; I was iln the .next room engaged
In other. wprki'Jiut "after he was done Iwent
over the Touchers
on the vouchers.
There are his pencil marks
-Q. Theayon made up your statements from
his BCDCll marks! A. Tes. sir,
Q.Do you know in what way he mode, this
separation wnat data ne naa to ga upuu: a.
No, sir; I tannot tell you; that I do not know
anything about i
Q. In. makingnp this statement, so far aa the
avenuesara concerned, did yoa charge the
whole amount oi the voucher or two thirds
A. I think that I understood him to say that It
was two thirds or one third; I forget now,
o w. for example, there were some
Touchers which tou say were for avenues
alone. Now, m tnose cases. you mm ')
T-AOTrtVa flp-oru-bnt you took your own!
A. Well, I relied upon them because his
figures w'ere there, and I checked off the
Touchers to compare with those figures.
Q. Did you take the full amount of th
voucher, or two-tblrus of tbe amoun'. of the
voucher! A. I took the full amount of tb
voucher. I believe In every voucher where It
siys "avenue" tnat tie whole amount of the
voucher was taken. J
Governor Shepherd. The corporation pail
the whole of the vouchers under the old law -Whenever
an assessment waa made It did not
fo on to the books of the corporation at aU) ,
ut on to the private-assessment books.
The Witness. Then thero are some Items
here not taken from vouchers, but from the
ward books, which are here and which caubt
referred to.
By Mr. Wilson: Q. What Is there to ttilir
the ward books, simply a charge on the bookd
A. That la signed by the commissioners of tbt
ward.
Q. That 13 the way you made that up! A.I
believe that is the way; at least there are the)
books. It Is made up from that, under tha
head of "paving, curling and grading," the
usual form signed by the commissioners fo
the work done.
Q. Have yqu any items of payments on thai
statement of yours! A. No; nothing at all
Q. It Is simply a statement of the amemsi
of work done by the old corporation! A. TesJ
sir: including grading and paving an ltemst' '
and there are one or two very large item
there. i
O. That is intended to be a full and eomnTcf
statement of all the work that had been dona
by the old corporation on the avenues from
1815! A. Tes, sir: up to 1870, tha time that
me coara went, into operation.
By Mr. Haltingly) Of Were not Instructions
given to reject everything that was' doubtful or,
which wonld be caviled at! A. Yes,' sir; so t
understood. I know Mr. Forsyth waa very par
ticular in regard to that matter," I had some,
conversation .with, him about It If everything
here-was complete. ' Before Lmade op the final
statement, In order to verify my work, I went ,
over it tnrself personally and examined itto-
joo that all the vouchers were there, and that
tne items were correct; ana ne toia me that ha
had gone over them', carefully? and taken out
everything-that appertained to the avenues,
and nothing beyond that.
Tbe Witness. I wish to make an explanation.
in regard to this assessment of Nineteenth
street, which Mr. Cluss has spoken of, which
he was unable to obtain. Some week or so ago
Mr. Forsyth received a letter from the board)
requesting a copy of the assessment of Nine
teenth street, from E street to Boundary. Tbe
letter waa referred to me. I did not exactly
understand why the assessments were needed,,
and I went down to the board and made in
quiry. I found out that there was an item fS
connection with tbe expenditure for some sod
ding which was not included In the auditor's
expenditures, and was afterwards called fcr
from Mr. Barney. He sent It up by me. t
went down personally at the time the assess
ment was made, which was the last of No
vember. He gave tbe Item in writing and
signed his name to it. It was Included as.
a part of the expendlturea. I took dowu
tb.ii Item, as I understood It from the board
that Mr. Cluss bad not seen this thing,
I produced a copy of It signed and certified to
by Mr. Forsyth. He said he was not satisfied
with that bat be wanted a statement made up
If you will give me an annual report I will
show you exactly what I mean. It has been
the habit always when an assessment has been,
made the time that the first special assess
ments were commenced for the auditor of the
Board of Public Works to make out such a
tabular statement as that. He said, "I want a
tabular statement." I told him I could not
get that, because our office did not make any
thing of tho kind ; all that we deal In Is dollars
and cents, not measurements. He produced"
this book In the office of the vice-president, and
said that waa what he wanted. I told him tfa
never got that up, that it belonged to the aud
itor's office; but eg far as the squares
or feet were concerned, that we gave.
I then forwarded the expenditures.
He not being satisfied with that, I gave him
duplicates of all bills that had been forwarded
by the auditor of the Board of Public Works
for assessments, and sent them down. I say I
forwarded them to the board ; all the bills of
expenditures that were assessed against NIneA
tcenth street, from E to the Boundary. Now,
Mr. Cluss speaks about being refused assess
ments. The assessments are of no value to
him whatever; they are matters of dollars and.
cents. In making up an assessment I don'C
look to measurements at all; I don't care any.
thing about them; all I want Is the money
fiart. In speaking of assessments he has rais
ed you In one respect. He should have sald.
that he wanted a tabular statement made ouC
In that form by the auditor after an assessment
was forwarded by the board. Now, Mr. Cluss
himself understands this, that when that as
sessment was made
The Chairman. He understands that as well
as you do, he says.
The Witness. The reason he could not get
that was that the assessment went In on tfcev
19th of November last, and the annual re
port was made on the 31st of October, which
Included this tabular statement. I do not know
whether the auditor has made out another form
corresponding with that assessment or not,
and giving the details which I generally fur
nish him in regard to the general fund, the
amount charged to the property (holders, and
the United States, and all that, and tie squares
and front feet. But lf-he had gone to the aud
itor, I presume he would have obtained a
copy, If it is printed. But so fares measure
ments are concerned, we do not care anything
about it. We make it up from dollars and
cents.
The Chairman. This statement furnished by
the auditor, I see In the margin "No. of
Toucher;" does that refer to the voucher on file;
for the expenditures!
Governor Shepherd. Tes; all the Touchers.
are here everything.
Recapitulation.
Mains ayenue
(783 07
1.S34 70
14.451 At
0,817 W
2,423 7T
New Hampshire avenue
23,7(3 U
Vermont avenue
- 12,002 40
13,318 49
. 20.-O1
38,278 41
. 28,611 40
11,742 M
. 21,143 89
10,884 (3
- 60,404 81
30,475 4
. 38 808 83
331,651 07
. 11,325 11
1,033 S3
. 14,213 83
11 878 71
. S0.343 83
.. 17.134 71
- 2D,tSt 83
13,137 84
- 0.133 Iff
e,02e
20,820 e
Massachusetts avenue
43,553 Si
Connecticut avenue .
43,354 33
Ehode Island avenue
40,633 82
New York avenus
33,539 15
New Jersey avenue
Pennsylvania avenue
8J,SS0 13
375,(80 03-
Delaware- avenae
12,353 SZ
Maryland avenue
23,034 10.
Virginia avenue
43,080 37
North Carolina avenue
31,02 03
South Carolina avenue
15,134 es-
eorgla arenas . ,
6,377
Louisiana avenue
63,920 81
43 00
7W23:
Tennessee ayenue -Kentucky
avenue
Missouri avenae
- 4.337 27
2,878 90
7,878 IT
Indiana avenue -
79.423 21
2,808 01
79,295 11
Ohio ayenue
743,(1
8,547 13
e.soo st
Sower, Pennsylvania avenue. Twen
tieth to Twenty-jlxlh street
Franklin square .....
Grand total- .....
7,487 Bf
6,51194
1,010,881 60.
The followic-r documents, offered in evidence,
"by Governor Shepherd, were ordered printed :
Slattrntntof total txptndlturtt o taeli and every
attnut of the city of H'aihltvjton ntdt bytht
corporation, ot Wuklnalon lince 1815, and
the Board of Public IVortt.wlth paimtntt mad
on account of tint by fas i'ntltt Stattt Gottrn
tntnt. Recapitulation.
Rilanee dne.-
Delawara ayenue ....
New Jersey avenuo .
Worth Carollua avenue . .
South Carolina avenue - - -Qeorilaavenue
- - - - -V!rgial
avenue-1 -Pennsylvania
avenue . - --Kentucky
annus
Tennessee avenue . -New
York arenas ....
Vermont avenue .
OoanecUcutATiaur r -
Rcede Island avenue - - -NavJiampshlra
avenue,
Masisehusetts avenue ...
Oblo avenue .....
Louisiana avenu . - - -Indiana
ave on a .....
Missouri avoaus ....
Malsaavonue .....
Maryland avenue - -
11,029,039 S6U
StalemmlofrzrmMlurti of at SoariXof Pul-
llc norkt oi orccuwc ut armu-i m " "
of TTaaAu-jfon, D. C.
JtecapituUtlon.
Cons, ave.,
LA-are.,
Bid. ave.,
Mo. an.,
N.H. ave.
N. C-ave
PC ave.
S.rXave.,
Vs. ave.,
tl?l.l? S3
33.0CS.t4
197.321
24.602 11
120.160 43
81,700-63
647,953 47
n.ies 23
70,509 17
FDel. av.t
M,73 3
aiint-na,
s4,oca irr-i
Aiat. ate
N. Y. ave.,
N.J. art..
Out arc,
K. L ave,,
YUave-,
433,649 31 '
209,694 U
214,773.20,
13,969 CI
123,783 M
82,853 33 J
12,410,179 U
3. U Lat.
'Auditor Board et Publle Works.
iti iVrn araoont fa in. full for all settled ae-
coants; 493,902.43 should be added for accounts nof.
jt lottled, eagre-fauna; 1530,618.79,
217 27
a,ie- 17
e i.-RO or
4.840 84
191,830 ii
1781 11
J3.129W
1,665 44
9.240 tV
224,059 W,
700 23
43 00.
88,099
SS.K3 90
JJ.1MM.
97.237 1
47,9414
Itustjsartv
42,031 91,
9,962 63;
6,073 Ei-
79173
M
..jus-