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B. R EXCORIATES CONGRESSMAN BOWERS t would prefer that you would get that from Mr. Hines. . 'Njtr. Bishop—The point I want to elaborate was as to whether this was an individual enterprise or whether a large section of the country is In terested. Mr. Neville—It is not an individual enterprise by any means; the whole country is Interested ln the develop ment and maintenance of that chan nel and harbor. The mere fact, Mr. Chairman, that this bill wffs introduced ln congress on the 26th day of April, with some hope that in the fairness and justness of congress it would be passed, and that the government would take hold of It, thereby giving a per manency to it, has increased anid stimulated all the enterprises in that place and in that community. The amount expended in dredging the channel and the anchorage basin up to January 24, 1906, was one million, five hundred and eighty-eight thousand dil iare ($1,588,000). Mr. Chairman—was that exclusive or Inclusive of the pier? Mr. Neville—Exclusive or the pier. Mr. Candler—The Chairman asked if that was exclusive of the pier. What did the pier cost? Mr. Neville—The pier, of course, is private property. Mr. -Neville says, further on, on page 16 of this report,, "One thing fur ther, gentlemn, that you can rid the minds of a great portion of the public of, that this is the project of one man. Investors shy from a proposition of that sort, notwithstanding that large investors have come to that country and have made great invest ments, yet they shy at the proposi tion that this is the project of one man. When the government accepts the contract as complete, then,- of course, that is relieved, and in my judgment the Improvements at that place and the benefits to commerce that would come because of the one act of congress taking this matter in hand and relieving it of the idea of a one man .scheme would sound like a fairy tale if I were to go into them." At about this point, the committee took a recess to reconvene on same, day at 1 o'clock.p. m., at which time. Mr. Burton, the chairman of the com mittee, was present. Mr. Neville re sumed his statement to the committee, iu which he said: ''And in addition to that, cotton and other products are already knocking at the door, seeking an outlet through $Mhe channel, and would be coming through there now, but for the condi tions which prevail, and I am sure that speedy action with reference to this matter will remove those difficul ties. because the grain elevators which are already contracted for', and other enterprises, indicate that new condi tions are opening and only awaiting I the taking charge of this project by the government. In addition to that, there are gentlemen who seriously con rent plate—not on paper, but seriously con template the building of other rail roads coming into Gulfport. Of course railroads will be constructed to the harbor when It Is once assured that the government has taken contol of it and Intends to have control of it f>om this time forward." Me. Bishop—I think you are the at torney for Mr. Jones, are.you not? Mr. Neville—I represent the Gulf and Ship Island Railroad, of which he is president. Mr. Bishop—Tlfls point occut'B to Tne: At present Mr. Jones owns the Mrbor and the adjoining property. While Mr. Jones lives I do not think there is any question but what the public would be allowed the free use of In to | 4 and . » \ BIG 10 For Ladies and Men iT r " . ■■■ 11 . be ' .. , of the wharves, and possibly he would allow other railroads to come ln and use the docks that are contemplated. The government, if it passes this bill will assume control of the channel and the basin. There is nothing to pre vent Mr. Jones or his successors from charging g wharfage that might be practically prohibitory, and ln fact, making a monopoly of the harbor, in spite of the improvements made by the government. Would you not think It possible that Mr. Jones, by some deed of conveyance or something of that nature, Bhould give the public a permanent right and privilege t 6 the uge of some portion at least of the ground or dock room and wharfage for use hereafter in years to come? In order to give you a fair understand ing, It would seem to me that we are ln a measure, Improving private prop erty. We are In a measure making that private property valuable, and there ought to be at least some securi ty for the freedom of the public use hereafter and some guarantytothe rail roads that might occupy terminals at this point. If we take thiB matter over and assume control of It, we can not release it. We are making perma nent legislation; and before It Is done and before we act, It seems to me at least that Mr. Jones, or some one acting for him, should secure the pub lic for the future. You seethe position that I take, and I would like to hear from you on that line. So far as Mr. Jones Is concerned, having met him, I have every confidence that during his life time that condition of affairs might continue to exist. But we hgve no business to make appropriations upon the mere strength of his good will. The committee owes this duty to the public aud to the State of Mississippi to provide that there shall be no hind rance placed in the path of the prog ress of the state, aud those wno In tend or wish to use this harbor in the future, and the committee, In order to be wise and to discharge that duty to the public, ought to see to It ln ad vance that while Mr. Jones is alive and can, by proper deeds of convey ance, secure the public for the future, he should do so. The committee. It seems to'me. ought to take that into consideration. Mr. Neville—I do not see how he could provide for the future against any contingency, if such contingency as you contemplate or Inquire about, should arise; but the law of eminent domain Is sufficient in itself to meet any such conditions, should they arise and to give any corporation access to that harbor should such conllnuency arise. The of the but to to in be up er the use to not pi ed no Chairman—The would be very averse to giving any Improvement to a harbor where the result would inure to the benefit of any Corporation or individual, end where the only way in which others could derive access to It, would he by the right of eminent domain, have too many projects for the Im provements of rivers and harbors for us to be justified ln making an im provement such as this at the present time. Suppose that a person wanted a dock of his own ln that harbor—an individual—would he have a right of eminent domain in your state? Mr. Neville—I do not thtnk'so. The Chairman—It would be only a railroad company which would have committee We it? Mr. Neville—A corporation. The Chairman—They w juld have it for the acquisition of the terminals, would they not Mr. Neville—Yes. The Chairman—According to soms states, even that would be doubtful. Mr. Neville—It would not be in Mississippi. At this point, Mr. Bowe"s, evidently seeing the trend of thought ot that committee, and seeing that Mr. Ne ville was not helping the cause of the Gulf and Ship Island Railroad, inter fered by trying to divert the attention of the committee from the rsal gist of the question to that of something else, but Mr. Bishop and others of the com mittee, would not allow Mr. Bowers to divert the argument from the ns in question at Issue, and thac was, as to the owner of the land or water front in which this channel and basin should be built, for Mr. Bishop again speaks up as follows: Mr. Bishop—I have wonderol wheth er it might not be possible for Mr Jones to release to the Secretary .of War at least a portion ot that western arm that Is not yet occupied as a wharf, but which is being built up by the dirt taken from the basin, to be by him controlled for the use of the public on such teuns ns 'he Secretary of War might pee lit to es tablish. At this point, does not Mr. Bowers show his real Inclination and 'ntenlioli to serve the Gulf and Ship Is'and Dailroad. when he says: Mr. Bowers—Would not that put the government into the hf tu.le of going into the wharfage business, and would not the clause just read by Mr. Alexan der cover all that is no )ded ? Mr.- Bishop—We have lmd cases of great difficulty to approach harbors that have been Improved by the gov ernment, and some times the public have been tied up by Injunctions and pi oceedings for years when 1 hoy want ed to use the harbor 1 understand that Mr. Jones has requested' or de sired that other roads should be built, and that they should have terminal fa cilities. In so far a 3 Mr. Jono 3 (s con cerned. It would be all r'.gm, I have no question, and tho levels would be reasonable; but, as I said befom we must provide for the (attire, and it occurred to me that that western pint might used for that purpose, per haps, In the bill, or 'I might bo accom plished by some release on tho part of Mr. Jones, so that might bo fixed, and absolutely fixed, ln the law, so that there might be no trouble hereafter. Mr. Neville—It seems to me that the provisions read by Mr. Alexander would at least dispose of that objec tion. urenorage Mr. Bishop—That would only touch . . . . . . , . wharfage charges and not terniiuals. . ,, .. ,, , ... , Mr. Neville—It sesnis to nte that ..... , . , . ,, that is the only Way n which it could . j _. ... . , be done. The proposition of itnprjv.ug z_ . . z private property has never entered ' , , , into the discussion at of, and never .. . ....... . , a has been thought of, toe prcpoyitlcn .. , , ... , . being that this improvement was at , , , . , solutely necessary, as domi.nsttgted , ' . .. , . by the figures for the cor, merce that was seeking that place, and. as Mr Bowers has suggested, some one must . , , , ... own the soil on either fine or it. Mr. Lester-Does Mr. Jones own all the land about the -e? j Mr. Neville—Not a'l the laud. I a Mr. Lester—I mean all touching the I water W m 7 Neville—Yes sir Mr. Bishop—And he claims to own the ground which has been built up [ on the western arm by lire dirt taken out of the anchorage basin? Mr. Neville—By ad cf legist-lie under the charter, which gives Ibis corporation the right to own nil re claimed soil at a point a half intle on each side of whers the railroad touches the Mississippi Sound. Mr. Lester—You mean the railroad corporation? Mr. Neville—Yes, pir; the Gu.f and Ship Island Railroad. Here, it appears that Mr Bowers saw. that Mr. Lester was getting the best of Mr. Neville In the presentation of this matter, and he interferes again In behalf of the Gulf and Ship Island Railroad, by Introducing Mr. Edward Hines as a witness in behalf of the Gulf and Ship Island Railroad,, and to the corporation. I would have you pay special attention to Mr. Hines' testimony. Mr. Hines—Mr. Chairman and Gen tlemen:. Our company, ufter carefully going over the timber situs:Ion of the country, arrived at the conclusion to invest a large amount of money adja cent to Gulfport. One of the main features ln'arrlving at this c inclusion was the fact of Its being a harlvr. In our judgment, from the ins*. investiga tion that we could make, it seemed a practical situation, not on theory, but on practice. We saw boats going out of Gulfport and talked with the cap tains and made measurements show'ng that they had gone out of there draw ing twenty-two feet of water without trouble. Now. the question presents itself, we have made an investment there of a very large amount of money, | something over $5,000,000 in actual cash mone} - , besides Obligations for other purposes. Mr. Lester—Whal was lhat for. the land? -Mr. Hines—Timber land. That in It self is not the important question. The timbefland is simply a foundation of necessarily having a railroad extend ing from Gulfport as our shipping point for the world, and also going northwest and crossing three or four systems. We-are confronted with the question that this harbor is now un- j der the otsntrol of a private corpora tion. The government so far has not taken possession of the harbor, and we have got- no guaranty as yet of what the government Is going to do. YVd want to go on with our Investment and put-a railroad in there and get to operating as fast as we can. The mar ket is broadening out. and we want to realize on our timber iAves'tment. We feel that the matter can be put in shape as Mr. Bishop and Mr. Alexan der have suggested. Now, If that can be consummated, we are here to urge upon you members the Importance of passing this bill at the earliest day possible. In the first place, we do not feel safe to go ahead and Invest sev eral million dollars north from Gulf port until this matter is settled. In the Becond place, It would probably be difficult to place bond on a railroad < until the government has taken hold of the harbor. We find that we can ship j through Gulfport at an advantage of $2 | a thousand feet of lumber over the I rate^on shipments from New Orleans. That I 5 a very large amount of differ ence. Mr. Bishop—How does that conic about? Mr. Hines—In the first [dace, the , vessels are able to enter Gulfport very much quicker than they can enter New Orleans, and the charges are less at Gulfport, and in the third place, they get greater dispatch, and the contract with ocean boats is so many iav days, and you can decrease the cost of lying there; that is less than at New Or leans, and they will take the freight from Gulfport for less and load It to day for less than they will from New Orleans. I was talking with Mr. Scan lon a short time ago, of the main line of the Illinois Central and he said that he figured he could .--hip his lum ber for over $2 a thousand cheaper through Gulfport than what he could I ship it for through New Orleans, and he was very anxious to open negotia tions with us if we could build our road down to Gulfport, 'Mr. Bishop—Are you the sole or only owners of timber lands in this country which will be covered by the railroad? Mr. Hines—No, sir; our lumber hold ing are between three and a half and four billions of timber. There are others who own as much more. The Newman interests own as much, and there are a dozen Interests that own , , , , ... very large bodies of timber. As the . , ,,, „ ,, developments go on you will go farther . * . and farther from the water. Shlp , _ ping to New York, you could take tlm z_ „ ... , .. . ber from 300 miles north down to Gulfport; then you could embark it on . . , a boat and take it to New York or to .. , ,, Montreal considerably cheaper than , ... „ ,_ you could take it by rail from 300 ,, , . .. .,_, miles north of Gulfport to New York, Mf Bishop _ Have you had any con . ferenoe wHh Mr Joneg regardlng the 4 . . , . . way terminals and facilities? ... Mr - Hiles-Yes; our board of di rectors was at Gulfll0,t ,bree weeks a &°' on Sunda > ' 11 was the flrst 0I, ' I Portunlty that they had had of going over this. We met Mr. Jones there and discussed (ho facilities. He said: ''Anything of a reasonable character." [ want *° bp >' er - v hroad ln ,he s,a,e - ,hat 1 n,ake ' Alone ' p wa °, wn nearl >' 3n0 '°°" acrea of ,lmber land ° ,,rselves ' sage facilities and terminals? a Mr. Bishop—You have not any defin ite figures, then, regarding railroad terminals or their cost, or the facili ties afforded you? Mr. Hines—No. sir. We took up this very thing with Mr. Jones ln consulta tion. We told him that we could not affard to go there before this question was settled of the government taking hold fef the harbor, and our directors practically unanimous from that were standpoint. Mr. Bishop—Would you advise that any provision be made before the pas of this bill for securing railroad Mr. Hines—Yes; I do think it rea sonable for the government to have reasonable control of the situation. The Chairman—I do not think that we could give you encouragement that action would be taken at this session on this bill, though I think that we can say that the general policy of the government should be to have control of these harbors, and as far as possible to remove them front private control; and the same applies to the channels leading to any port. At this session are passing no measures except those of a positive nature, or a very general nature. , we Mr. Hines—This, I think Is along those lines. Now you have only one railroad to Gulfport. You ought to have more roads there, and you would be serving mre people by having more roads. there now under the preeent condi / (Continued on page b!x.) 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